- cross-posted to:
- esports@lemmy.zip
- cross-posted to:
- esports@lemmy.zip
Several teams of female gamers have dropped out of the Dead by Daylight Women’s World Cup after trans women were banned.
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“Having two X chromosomes makes you worse at video games,” say Dead by Daylight Women’s World Cup organizers
What the fuck does gender or sex have to do with esports? This is just another insecure misogynist skill issue thing like every other competition setting where a man once lost to a woman. So fucking stupid.
chess has a separate women’s division… but they consistently rank lower than men and if it was mixed there would be no women playing at top level matches….
there’s also a separate Grand Master and Women’s Grand Master titles… women can become GM’s but they typically don’t….
i imagine the difference is cultural and comes down to how they’re raised….It’s not a matter of ability, but instead comes down to a numbers game. There are significantly more men who play chess, so they will be overrepresented at high levels of play while women will be underrepresented.
You see it in many, many non-physical sports. Chess, e-sports, professional poker, etc.
It’s anecdotal, but I myself used to participate in a niche board sport at a professional level. The skill gaps between men and women at the top level is enormous. The boards are electric, so there is little physical sex based advantage, if anything women’s lower centers of gravity is a plus, but there are just significantly fewer women who race competitively. This is evidenced even futher by the fact that each of women at the top level have tremendous skill gaps between one another when compared to the men.
The more competitors you have in any given bracket, the higher the skill ceiling will be pushed.
It’s that and also cultural biases getting into your head. If researchers give women and POCs a math test they do fine. If they give them the same math test but frame it like they want to see how their scores come out vs white men they do much worse. The pressure and judgement gets to you and makes you perform poorly even if no one is directly saying you suck.
Seperate gendered esports makes zero fuckin sense what the actual fuck.
I also exists for chess for example and makes a lot of sense. If one gender is vastly underrepresented, giving them a separate competition helps them succeed at all.
In most sports the male competition is an actually open competition for all genders.
Adding onto this, it’s also for helping foster community among marginalized groups who are all passionate about the same thing. It’s hard to develop that community when you don’t see other people from that group in the sport or hobby you’re in.
Creating women only competitions is a way to connect people to help them foster that community and bring other women into the sport so that one day, it won’t just be a male dominated sport.
last i checked women make up around half of all gamers. why would roughly half of all gamers be “vastly underrepresented” in esports? 🤔
Because they actually are. There’s effectively no rules barring women from competing on regular esports teams, it just never seems to happen. There isn’t the same drive or interest, and there isn’t enough in the overall culture to support it. This isn’t some kind of proposed physical separation, it’s intended to drive interest and representation from a competitive standpoint.
keep going, you’re almost there
This isn’t some big brain gotcha. Among the various other reasons, many men and boys being inappropriate around women is another reason to have a woman only league. But I’m glad you got to feel special
idk man that sounds like segregation apologetics to me.
How is a blahaj.zone account in favor of banning trans women from women’s sports? This is like seeing capitalism apologea from a .ml account
i’m not, you need to think more and react less
eta: im not sure where you even came away with that idea, either. it never surprises me when a sh.itjust.works account is fucking illiterate tho.
You may be right, but that’s not the situation here. The categories already exist, and the question is how to manage them.
In this case, it seems like the categories don’t already exist. This whole thing is being run by some random kik streamer
Okay, what’s the excuse for the tournament’s actions?
Are they claiming a Y chromosome now unlocks special gaming abilities when activated with Mtn Dew and Doritos?
I think they’re trying to promote women in sports, and some idiot decided that a male player might enter the comp looking for easy wins against a smaller pool of players.
Its a compete failure to read the room, but that’s my guess as to how they ended up here.
Don’t forget that also… There are cis women with y chromosomes. There are cis men without. There are intersex people.
So true. I wonder what their metric is, then? “Sorry you spent too many years on Xbox Live before starting E.” Lmao.
They fucking suck.
my guess (regarding split divisions) is it’s just money, there are many more times hardcore male gamers than female… but people want to watch female gamers as much or more than men…
so if you had coed competitions, they’d end up being 95% male, and they’d make less money…Not co-ed, trans-inclusive.
duly noted….
i was speculating on the reasoning behind their rules; having a split women’s and men’s divisions…. not the reasoning for being trans-exclusive.Oh, I was talking about the trans exclusion. Sorry, I didn’t mean to come across as nitpicky; I thought your comment was calling trans women men and I wanted to test the waters without being overly confrontational.
no worries… it’s a treacherous world out there and i could’ve been more clear
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i’v always found dr.pepper and flaming hot cheetos to be a better performance enhancer
Mountain dew and pizza for us pc gamers. Or redbull and vodka 😬
But the real trick is to eat/hydrate properly and actually exercise, like a real athlete, but then manage your stims properly for the actual competition so you aren’t desens or already worn out or gas early
“for technical and operational reasons” my elbow
Okay. If a few trans “imposters” slip through and get into tournaments lying about their status…
So what?
Like, what’s the risk? Let’s say a guy slips into the girls league, and… plays the game? If they’re being a jerk about it, well, there’s your red flag to ban them.
I don’t see why this is such an existential issue.
“We recognize, respect, and value the diversity of identities within the Dead by Daylight community and within gaming as a whole,” the statement continues. “Trans women are an important part of the scene and have participated in our previous tournaments, where they have always been welcomed and respected. Their presence and contributions have never been questioned, nor has there ever been any discriminatory stance against them.”
The statement says the decision to ban trans women “was based solely on technical and operational limitations.”
It’s notoriously technically difficult to just do nothing and allow trans women to play video games. Basically can’t be done, except in every previous year.
What a stinking heap of bullshit.
What the hell does gender have to do with gaming?!? There is no inherently gender-based advantage on either end! So stupid…
It’s similar to women’s only chess championships. Think of it sort of like an affirmative action type of thing, where the misogyny that’s prevalent in a particular pursuit causes women to be disproportionately underrepresented.
That makes this decision even more galling to me.
I can see having a women’s league being valuable to foster a safe space outside of the misogynistic dude bro culture that’s so prevalent in gaming, but that’s a space trans women need access too just as much if not more than cis women.
Exactly. I know chess has women-only events and open events. There is no men’s event. There just wouldn’t be any women if a space weren’t dedicated to women. The culture is so male dominated that it’s needed with no respect to advantage. I imagine e-sports is the same way.
The goal is to eliminate trans people by isolating them and excluding them from society.
Probably a similar reason to why there are tournaments and ranking systems exclusive to women in chess. From my understanding, there are far fewer women in chess than men, more hurdles for women in chess and less opportunity for them to thrive and reach their full potential. Many may have started later and were generally less encouraged to pursue chess, likely resulting in less time spent playing chess from a younger age. Therefore there are events exclusive to women in an effort to create a more balanced competitive environment that isn’t dominated by men who were placed in front of a chess board and cheered on since they were in diapers.
Being male is a huge advantage when gaming - I don’t know how I’d even game without both hands on the keyboard and controlling the mouse with my dick.
Yeah, this is infuriating.
I did Karate for a decade, went to a number of tournaments, and I’m a giant gamer dork.
Yes, in combat sports, there are legitimate arguments one can make that defining some kind of category delineation based on bone/muscle density from your biology makes roughly as much sense as weight classes… though I can say that only time I have ever been actually, fully KO’d was from a woman, roughly the same age/weight as myself, landing a roundhouse kick directly on my temple (side of my head).
But… keyboard combat? No. Makes no fucking sense at all.
Well you see, trans women something something g shoulder orientation something something angle of neck relative to the monitor so obviously there’s just too much of an advantage.
They’re an average of 1.6 seconds faster at their 4pools than cis women.
Coding socks constitute an inherently unfair advantage, skirts allow too great a level of thermal regulation, rofl.
In theory there aren’t, but at the top of basically all esports and even games like chess, there are no women. Why is that? Are men more competitive?
Typically I think men are more competitive and just more likely to pursue things to the degree and extent it takes to become world class in chess for example. It’s not an issue of inherent ability as much as the potential pool of people being smaller
Basically its because our gender is shit and ruins everything.
The statement says the decision to ban trans women “was based solely on technical and operational limitations.”
“In a global online tournament, we do not have reliable tools to ensure transparency and verification for every participant. For this reason, we had to make decisions under uncertainty, relying instead on the trust we place in team leaders and their players,” it says. “… This situation does not reflect a lack of willingness to be inclusive, but rather the absence of adequate mechanisms to manage verification in a fair, safe, and respectful manner for all participants.”
So, WTF does this even mean? I don’t watch e-sports, but are leagues sometimes separated by gender? If so, why? I always assumed there were mixed teams, since gender or sex in this realm is 100% irrelevant when it comes to skill.
Either way, it’s complete bullshit.
Women are generally underrepresented in esports, so it makes sense to have a women’s division to foster interest and give them a community of their own in a male-dominated field. Of course, the arguments for barring trans women are even more specious than in contact sports
in the same way that engineering disciplines often provide priority to women because it’s hard af for them in the discipline not for any good reason but just because the industry is misogynistic af
being a women and a gamer is far more toxic than being a man and a gamer, and that drives away a lot of women who may have been the best, and men don’t have that same hindrance just by virtue of their gender
id argue too that anyone claiming to be trans probably has similar levels of toxicity, and therefor it shouldn’t be an issue: if the division is about encouraging diversity to combat toxicity, who cares if that toxicity comes from transphobia or misogyny
You’re not thinking like a bigot, that’s why you’re confused. In their minds, most trans women are actually just pervy men trying to gain unfair access to sexy gamer girls so that they can assault them. The organizers feel an obligation to protect women from a threat they imagined in their heads.
You know, I knew this day would come. I knew we would reach the point where we would ban trans women from esports.
Because again it’s never about any advantages trans women have.
Is there even a male / female division is esports?
No there isn’t. They can’t even use that excuse.
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Gender segregation shouldn’t be done in anything as far as I know. Just pit skill against skill.
Gender segregation is usually done to encourage less dominant groups in sports. Like chess, for instance (good comparison to video games).
Women have higher avg IQ than men. Sex based physiological differences have zero impact. Women are in theory just as good as men at chess.
In practice, women do not perform well at chess compared to men in high level competitive play. Why? Fewer women play chess because of sociological/cultural reasons, therefore by the law of large numbers we don’t yet have a Magnussy Carlsen.
The solution? Create womens leagues where they can compete against other women in the game and see more success.
Another example is football (soccer), but between countries. American atheletes have dominated a great many sports at various times - basketball, american football, track and field, swimming, tennis. Why has the USA never won the world cup? Relatively few Americans play football compared to other countries, so the talent pool is smaller and the USA doesn’t have major global talents like other countries do. The answer? Build the domestic competitive infrastructure needed to produce talent. If the US does this, eventually it will not suck at football because the talent pool will be larger and it will have global talents.
Similarly, if womens chess leagues continue to gain traction, inspire more women to play chess, increase the size of the talent pool, then eventually womens leagues won’t be necessary - the talent pools between genders will homogenize.
Nitpicking but it’s worth mentioning the US women’s soccer team was insanely dominant for most of 2010 -> 2020, Rapinoe, Morgan and gang inspired tons of young girls to get into football, while the men’s never achieved anything
That’s a really good point - especially because soccer in the US is more popular among girls. Less so now, but traditionally more women played soccer in highschool/college than men - who were more drawn to basketball/baseball/football. I was just talking about mens soccer, but womens is a great example.
If you have to justify it based on sociological and cultural reasons, that’s not a good example cause at that point one could use the same arguments to justify racial segregation.
That’s a crazy comparison to make. Segregation excludes people while women’s sports includes people. Many “men’s” leagues are actually just open. The only reason women don’t join is due to sociological and cultural reasons. As women integrate more into the culture, women’s leagues are less and less needed since the women who want to compete will prefer the open league. It’s an inclusive force.
Frankly, if you start by trying to include women and end up segregating based on race, I question whether you were ever working in good faith.
Tbf I don’t think there should be mens leagues. Just an open league. So i don’t entirely disagree. But regardless that is supposed to be the point of having separate leagues.
The solution? Create womens leagues where they can compete against other women in the game and see more success.
Sorry, in terms of solving the root cause of the problem this suggestion doesn’t make sense to me.
The solution is to decrease people from making judgements based on in most cases* meaningless differences like gender or skin colour, e.g., to not think “You got beat up by a girl? How pathetic!” anymore. Basically prevent any prejudiced, juvenile, or toxic male thought patterns which scares people from ever trying something. I hate that running competition results are still segregated by gender. I don’t give a rats ass what the gender or country of origin of the person was who beat me, I simply care about the thrill of competing and the festive yet athletic mindset that comes with it.An analogy, I think it was a stupid decision to make emoji distinctions by skin colour. Why? It exactly undermines the entire purpose of having done so for inclusivity by putting even more emphasis on differences in skin colour. Yellow was perfect because nobody is yellow so it simultaneously represents everyone an no one, except for sick people who are jaundiced.
* Exceptions: pregnancy, sickle cell disease, et cetera.
An analogy, I think it was a stupid decision to make emoji distinctions by skin colour. Why? It exactly undermines the entire purpose of having done so for inclusivity by putting even more emphasis on differences in skin colour. Yellow was perfect because nobody is yellow so it simultaneously represents everyone an no one, except for sick people who are jaundiced.
Why Are Emoji Yellow? by Lily Alexandre 33 minutes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vio9Yr0x4YY
Well goddamn, the history and backlash behind 🙂 totally came out of left field. I knew I should’ve used black and white Unicode emoticons instead; ☺ ☻ *. However, I stick to my point though, and at 18:39 the interviewee pretty much agrees.
* In case one of these shows as an emoji, the intention is to render these as non-emoji black and white Unicode glyphs:
.
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Ehhhhhh… Sure some genders will have benefits in certain sports, but… so what?! Let the individuals with the skills be recognized.
At the level of world-class athletes, they’re ALL genetic freaks of nature. Who the flying fuck cares what’s between their legs?! They’re already uniquely gifted. Just let the entire spectrum of humanity shine, for fuck’s sake.
False, because “you’re wrong but I won’t tell you why” is not a valid argument and a useless contribution.
“It is better either to be silent, or to say things of more value than silence. Sooner throw a pearl at hazard than an idle or useless word; and do not say a little in many words, but a great deal in a few.” ―Pythagoras (570–496 BC)
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I’m sorry you feel that way. To avoid ambiguity, I’m criticizing your argument, not you as a person.
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Probably because you’re a weirdo that “criticized” them by stalking their account and mentioning irrelevant details in an attempt to insult someone that was trying to argue with you in good faith. The edit here is hilarious because you just make yourself look like more of a douchebag.
Oh lol To avoid any further ambiguity, Im criticizing your webpage.
You’re a bad person aren’t you.
What do you mean “skill against skill”?
In my perfect world, sports wouldn’t be gendered, but would have some sort of class system like boxing weight classes. The best boxers in the world will be the heavyweights but smaller people can still compete against somebody their size. Why did boxing figure this out before basketball got height classes? I’ll never know.
Another way of interpreting your comment is dismissing differences and simply making people all compete against each other. This would obviously exclude all women from most sports so you’d have to be a pretty committed misogynist to think that was preferable to gendered sports.
What do you mean “skill against skill”?
Like your boxing example.
On lichess.org new accounts gets the average Elo rating from where they can work their way up or down. In sports one can simply go to a club and start off with the beginners or where they or a coach think they could manage and work their way up.Another way of interpreting your comment is dismissing differences and simply making people all compete against each other. This would obviously exclude all women from most sports so you’d have to be a pretty committed misogynist to think that was preferable to gendered sports.
This wouldn’t be misogynist but bullying because heavyweight men/women would beat up featherweight men/women too.
It would be bullying and misogyny.
Doesn’t this ban imply the creators believe trans women are the ideal form of gamers since the only active reason to ban them was if they were physically superior at playing video games to both men and women? Otherwise why would it matter?
Yes
both men and women?
Woman’s world cup
Why are gaming competitions segregated by gender anyway?
Yeah, it’s like segregated chess championships. Are they even needed?
They are. Its not about physical support but about the structures giving men much more support than women. It makes a huge difference whether you can fully focus on learning the game or have to still work maybe even full time.
Yes, but for behavior not inequality.
IMO should be integrated and shitheads just kicked out.
That is probably the worst community to do bigot shit like this too. Most DBD players I know are very based and inclusive
Haha was about to literally buy the game on Steam, bullet dodged.
Do the tournament organizers have anything to do with the game devs?
Devs shouldn’t allow it to be official if they do this, send takedown notices.
Saying trans people can’t play pro video games is like saying people from Latin America can’t play sportsball(kicking edition)
the game has to approve it being in the tournament. they can withdraw consent
WTF banning trans gamers because of what? Because beating on trans people takes focus from your own gender identity insecurity? Gtfo
Also, and I know this isn’t the point. But the word “women” is a noun, the adjective is “female”. I know that some misogynistic assholes use “female” as a noun, which from a linguistical POV is just as bad, and it’s why some people don’t like using “female” as an adjective. But… And it is as I’m writing this, that it dawns on me, that if people should be able to transform, then so should language… Dagnabbit! I just don’t like it when people change the language, but I’ll wear a rainbow pin, I’ll and defend trans people… What does that make me?
Misogyny didn’t change “male” and “female” into nouns, they’ve always functioned as nouns since their first usage in the 1300s, according to some quick research. Also, there’s no such thing as linguistic morality, either you can communicate your thoughts with others or you can’t.
