All this thread tells me is how little memory people have. Late into Obama’s office, he brokered a deal that would have reduced Iran’s ability to create wmds in exchange for lifting sanctions while giving the rest of the world the ability to monitor them to make sure they actually stop trying to make a wmd. Trump infamously cancelled this deal early into his first run and now people are acting like he’s doing a good job by wanting to attack Iran- Trump created this problem in the first place!
Trump created this problem in the first place!
I think it’s good to be absolutely crystal clear on what the problem is. Iran is not building nuclear weapons. They say this themselves, and the entire American intelligence community, as well as the UN’s IAEA agree that they haven’t since 2003. The amount of evidence that Iran is building WMDs is exactly the same as it was for Iraq in the early 2000s (i.e., non-existent). So that’s not the problem.
Huh? what about all those 60% enriched uranium & refusal to let international experts to actually check what they are doing ?
I don’t know man, ask the IAEA or the NSA
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Warmongering and unconditional support is bipartisan.
Biden never did anything to fix it, they’re invariably ‘sabotaged by the other side and powerless’, same as with every other issue.
Like when Trump unilaterally ended the missile treaties.
If anything Biden escalated tension with Iran with some aggresive actions.
And anyway Iran never was planning to get nukes.
They are an advanced country and have nuclear energy which is their right.
The scaremongering lies by the genocide state and their big bully friend do not change that.
If anything, I hope they change their mind and start working on a nuke since they invariably get provoked and attacked for no reason.
Can someone fill me in, is there any actually grounds for Israel to attack Iran and why is the United States involved, y’know other than the usual simping for Israel.
No, you’ve pretty much got it.
I know people don’t like to hear this but Iran has been funding terrorism forever now. Hezbolah, Houtis, Hamas - are all funded by Iran. They also been clearly working on nuclear weapons so you don’t need to do complex math to see why Iran is a threat to Israel. If Iran ever gets nukes 100% they’d be aiming them at Israel or cover conventional attacks behind nuclear weapons.
As for US, Israel literally exists because it gives US an in to middle east. It’s only real US ally that aligns with west’s freedoms in the region and is capable of executing military and security operations in the region so obviously is a very important subject.
So in this example Israel is acting as a vassal state to the United States essentially?
Sure if you have very limited understanding of geopolitics. Otherwise its much more complex than that but clearly it’s too difficult to understand for some people here cause nuance is scary.
What’s the nuance?
It’s all the same genocidal colonizer empire. They’ve been attacking Iran and the middle east more generally for decades if not centuries.
Not entirely. Their leaders certainly don’t want to continue under the threat of eventual annihilation by Iran. They’re not exactly doing this under duress.
In reality Iran has no nukes and hasn’t been trying to get nukes.
The zio regime has terrorist nukes and uses them to threaten the planet with a nuclear holocaust.
Brainwashed lib who has no clue who the actual “terrorists” are is here promoting genocide and terrorism? Zero surprise.
Because war helps economy. Even tho it makes everyone suffer on both sides and last few wars didnt help economy at all unless you sell weapons.
Also WW2 ended great depression right after unions were legalized and first minimum wage law was signed into law. But yeah it was totally the war that singlehandedly fixed everything.
/sarcasm
war helps economy.
Yeah that tells you what “the economy” is actually worth.
The claim is (as always), Iran is on the verge of having nuclear weapons.
The whole idea is that if Iran did get nuclear weapons, it would be too risky to attack them, and that they could use their immunity from being attacked to make the world a much worse place.
I don’t know if we should believe the assessments of their capabilities. Israel has been saying they’re days, weeks or months away from having a nuclear weapon for going on 30 years now. But, AFAIK, nobody has actually said that they currently do have WMD.
Claiming that BS for 30 years:
https://tankie.tube/w/sh7jHCDiBgK74cjdV9wxVbAm I seeing things right? Tabkie.tube being used as a source, in Lemmy.world, and with positive reception, and no negative comments?
facts are facts no matter who reports them.
And it felt good to post that here, plenty off great videos for them to discover.
Praxis
How have they been unable to make a nuclear weapon in that time, are they stupid?
Well, if they had been trying, they probably would have done it. So, the fact they haven’t done it suggests…
According to the UN’s IAEA, as well as the American intelligence community, they haven’t tried building nukes since 2003.
They’re not trying.
They are definitely not stupid and their population is far better educated than the US for instance.
Who can’t even produce a hypersonic missile with all the billions they piss away on ‘defense’ LOL
Iran does have them, Russia has 4th gen, even China and India.
Who’s stupid?Does Iran have hypersonic missiles? I thought they were using ballistic missiles which is something else.
They have, haven’t had time to follow the war but I think they said they were going to use a higher class of missile (after another wave of attacks from the entity).
I know they haven’t used their top stuff yet. (what I know until 2 days ago).Iran has said lots of things, what have they actually shown.
I bet you didn’t see videos of the entity getting trashed.
They arrest people making videos and western media doesn’t want to show the results of the Iron Sieve and crappy US AD.And what Iran have shown is restraint despite many unprovoked attacks.
IDC if you believe it. Better for them if the genociders and US are delusional and have their mispaced superiority complex while both sucking ass at fighting.
Even the Houthi hit them from 1000’s km and gets the US ships to fuck off.I have seen clips of Israel being hit. As you are refusing to be specific and blaming this vague “western media” I will assume you are just a propaganda bot.
This is a dumb meme because the whole argument is that if Iran gets nukes then we won’t be able to attack them.
However I do think it’s funny how many of the justifications for the unprovoked attacks on Iran sound exactly like Russian justifications if you just switch a couple names around:
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Iran having nukes is a threat to the US security/Ukraine joining NATO (which would allow them to station nukes there) is a threat to Russian security
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Iran’s government is full of radical Islamists/Ukraine’s government is full of Banderite Nazis
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Iran is firing ordinance off at civilian targets in Israel, as part of their aim to exterminate Jews/Ukraine is firing ordinance off at civilian targets in Donbass, as part of their aim to exterminate Russians.
It’s very silly how all these arguments are accepted as “obvious” and reasonable when it’s our side, but flip the picture and it suddenly it becomes just as “obvious” that those lines of reasoning are not valid. At no point is either Iran or Russia’s perspective seriously considered because they’re the bad guys and we’re the good guys, whether and to what extent those reasons are valid simply flips depending on who’s using them.
Propaganda is a hell of a drug.
BS comparison.
Everything you mention is wrongI present to you Bloomcole, Lemmy’s stupidest user. Give them a hand!
Yeah that’s about the level of argument I’ve come to expect from y’all: “Nuh uh.”
I can refute every lie but why waste time, people probably know.
Are you sure it’s you who can refute all my points, or is it your girlfriend who goes to another school but is totally real guys, trust me, who can?
o my such a mature comment
You chose this level of discourse, don’t complain about the bed you made.
You’re still perfectly welcome to engage in an intelligent way, as I have, but if you start going, “Uh uh, you’re wrong bc reasons, no you don’t get to know what those reasons are but they totally exist” then I’m gonna bring it down to your level.
I just humored the other guy (or your alt) since it was somewhat civil.
And I can’t go around correcting everyone’s or your many wrong statements, I would be here all day.
The weather is good and I’ll be in the garden with some cocktails.
Can we settle for one? Should easily take less time to post than your last two baity comments ;)
Sigh, OK the first one: “Iran having nukes is a threat to the US security/Ukraine joining NATO (which would allow them to station nukes there) is a threat to Russian security”
1 Iran doesn’t have nukes nor is it rying to, so that’s anxcuse.
It is in no way comparable to NATO (which actually has nukes and is agressive) stationing them close to Moscow with no time to react.
That is a red line acknowledged and stated many times both by Russia and the US who were fully aware they wouldn’t take it.Well, kudos where is due for giving one of your opinions! Helps everyone better understand where you’re coming from. Your point that it is an unfair comparison would have more weight IF the position of Iran not working towards nuclear weapons is correct. (As NATO does have nuclear options, Ukraine joining NATO would be akin to arming Ukraine with nuclear weapons)
In any case this is not the opinion held by the current proponents in the conflict, whether rightly or wrongly, so I believe Objection is entitled to their opinion.
IF the position of Iran not working towards nuclear weapons is correct
That has been said by everyone, even the US.
Only genociders and their hasbara trolls say otherwise.
As we have learned, pisrahellis lie when they open their mouth.
Lmao so you reply to someone else but not to me.
1 Iran doesn’t have nukes nor is it rying to, so that’s anxcuse. It is in no way comparable to NATO (which actually has nukes and is agressive) stationing them close to Moscow with no time to react. That is a red line acknowledged and stated many times both by Russia and the US who were fully aware they wouldn’t take it.
Wait, your objection is that the comparison is too unfavorable to Russia? That’s the opposite of what I thought your problem was, which was that you were pro-war in Iran and anti-Russia, and took exception to the comparison based on that. This misunderstanding could have been avoided if you had, in any way, actually stated your positions from the start instead of acting like a dick for no reason. It also makes your, “everybody already knows why you’re wrong” statement even more ridiculous, considering that we’re having this conversation on .world.
My point is not to argue that these lines of argument are inherently valid or invalid, but to point out the contradiction of people who support US intervention in both Ukraine and Iran categorically accepting these lines in one case and categorically rejecting them in the other. You’ll note that I said:
It’s very silly how all these arguments are accepted as “obvious” and reasonable when it’s our side, but flip the picture and it suddenly it becomes just as “obvious” that those lines of reasoning are not valid. At no point is either Iran or Russia’s perspective seriously considered
Ideally, both perspectives should be considered and the lines of argument should be examined for validity on a case by case basis. However, if someone blindly accepts/rejects them in one case, refusing to even consider the other side’s perspective, then they’re being hypocritical if they don’t do the same in the other.
Again, you completely misinterpreted me and, because you decided to be a dick about it, only now do I have a chance to explain myself.
I read this when it was late and indeed misinterpreted it.
It happens in this overwhelmingly right-wing environment where I have to argue 5 people at once.
So much that I didn’t even notice your .ml
Glad we’re on the same page.
I’m confused why people are downvoting you
I assume because the people I’m criticizing don’t have any other response, that’s generally what downvotes mean.
Yeah but Ukraine was aggressive.
Russia is making it into a neutral neighbour akin Canada.
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Iraq, after the Gulf War, was never found by the IAEA to be in possession of or active production of uranium in excess of 20% target enrichment. That’s a level consistent with civilian-only use.
The IAEA has repeatedly confirmed Iran has enriched uranium to 60% in increasingly large quantities. Iran has also admitted it, and provides nebulous excuses when pressed about it. There is zero modern civilian purpose for that level of enrichment, and it doesn’t take much time to refine from 60% to 85% for high yield weapons grade uranium. Days to months, not years.
Assessments have concluded that Iran does not yet have a functional nuclear weapon, but once they do possess one, now your hands are tied. The only winning move is a pre-emptive strike to prevent nuclear proliferation. Talks are meaningless and not in good faith - Iran sees Israel as a mortal enemy that already has nuclear weapons. Like with North Korea, Iran’s nuclear proliferation was used as an indefinite negotiating tool and never intended to be off the table. Iran also does not have a plausible defense purpose for nuclear weapons. If they think the US or Israel would wage war to topple the Iranian state, wouldn’t those countries have done it already over the past 50 years? Iran’s leadership has, over and over, declared their intent to destroy Israel. They provide weapons and support for proxy groups fighting Israel. Who’s to say they wouldn’t deliver a nuclear device to a proxy group that sneaks it into Tel Aviv and detonates it, then denies responsibility?
Should have dunked on North Korea before they completed their bomb too, but I guess unlike Iran, their regional partner China wasn’t already preoccupied losing another war.
Days to months, not years.
If Iran is days to months away from a nuclear bomb, then for all intents and purposes they already have a nuclear bomb. The fact they don’t have a nuclear bomb already despite having 60% enriched uranium for years can only mean that they simply don’t want a nuclear bomb.
The only winning move is a pre-emptive strike to prevent nuclear proliferation.
The only winning move is diplomacy to prevent nuclear proliferation, aka JOCPA. I wonder how that went. Also I find claims that Iran is so close to a nuclear bomb very doubtful given that they’ve been around for literal decades.
No, days to months away from weapons grade enriched uranium if they so chose. If you don’t trust what the International Atomic Energy Agency has to say about nuclear proliferation from on-site assessments, I guess there’s no convincing you of anything else.
they don’t want a bomb
Then why the fuck are they enriching uranium beyond what’s necessary for energy purposes?
To point to if and when America wants to invade? There’s a difference between “yo we can make a nuclear bomb so play nice” and actually making a nuclear bomb. Also because they have literally no reason to not enrich uranium given that they’re already sanctioned to hell and back, so they might as well go the potentially nuclear-powered pariah route.
Iran also does not have a plausible defense purpose for nuclear weapons
Hmm, that’s an interesting argument, but I read something recently that challenges that idea, it was some user who said something like, uhh, “once they do possess one, now your hands are tied.”
Warmongering psycho can’t even keep their arguments straight without self-contradicting in the same paragraph.
How anybody can take these insane positions so casually is beyond my comprehension. No one like you should ever have a voice in politics
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Iran also does not have a plausible defense purpose for nuclear weapons. If they think the US or Israel would wage war to topple the Iranian state, wouldn’t those countries have done it already over the past 50 years?
Shills straight up denying not just reality but the events they’re spewing propaganda about. Gotta love the gung ho 15 year old attitude by people who have managed to lose every engagement they had in Asia since 1945 with even that mostly because they didn’t have to worry about the other axis countries. Ever thank China and USSR fot taking care of Japan on the mainland while you were busy drowning and flapping about in the Pacific? No, you recruited Unit 731 criminals instead.
Anyway reminder for delulu revisionists like you, you tried to dunk on Korea already back when “their regional partner” was vastly weaker than now and failed miserably. You’d have tried it if failing again wasn’t inevitable. That’s why NK has nukes, not because you supposedly allowed them to have them or were neglectful lmao.
I’d like to thank the mods for leaving conflicting comments up. I’ve seen too many echo chambers going up on lemmy. Appreciate you all. Also appreciate those I don’t agree with for sharing their ideas, calling me out on mine and sometimes changing my mind, and taking the time for discourse. Those who argue in bad faith, have no open mind, and pretend to have empathy, fuck yourself.
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That kind of blatant mischaracterization of the Russian invasion of Ukraine is exactly why people call you guys Tankies.
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Russia occupying Crimea or attacking Kyiv is not “propaganda” it is material, verifiable fact. If your position is “those are already part of Russia” then fuck you.
Acting like constantly expanding NATO to Russia’s border and trying to get an upper hand for a possible first strike in a nuclear exchange by stationing Murican nukes there is “west defending from possible eastern aggression” while trying to justify one more “defensive preemptive strike” in the Middle East because Eglin cheeto eaters can’t ever be consistent. Pipe down and stay in your hemisphere you trash heap unless you want to explain how Crimea somehow didn’t have a valid referendum because Murican State Department doesn’t like the results as if they know anything about Crimea (must be magic how Russia doesn’t need to do much policing in an area that supposedly doesn’t really want to belong to Russia, no resistance to “occupation” at all) but Hawaii, Guam, Samoa, Puerto Rico, Guantanamo in Cuba, the Virgin Islands are parts of the USA. Or how the USA is justified invading the entire Caribbean for a whole century without any foreign superpower trying to put nukes there, just because the US is an imperialist entity into constant landgrabs.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
What’s this btw? Is it the US directly interfering in Ukrainian politics to set up their puppets for over 10 years? I bet you shills want everyone to forget about that. Gtfo lol.
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Whataboutism isn’t an argument.
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Oh good, someone made a second one of these inane memes
Israel - what’s with the face?
Call your rep - demand Israel pay reparations for attacks.
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hahaha.
and they are building a “golden dome” with the best possible outcome -> matching Israel’s not working net. lmao
https://t.me/boris_rozhin/169440?singledeleted by creator
