So fishing for sport where they catch and release is basically torture by getting injured by the hook and then asphyxiating for however long they are out of water before being released.
Yup. But deep down we all kinda knew that, right? It was always fish torture for sport.
Now I’m wondering where noodling is on this scale.
What is noodling?
Noodling is basically cat fish hunting by allowing the catfish to bit onto your arm and you lift it out of the water onto the shore.
Wow. Thanks.
Probably worse, unless they are less likely to pull the fish up to begin with unless being kept? I doubt the hook is anywhere near as traumatic as the rest of the process.
I’m pretty sure a lot of people legitimately do not see fish as more than objects, and I mean they never fully made the connection not that they do it intentionally.
It never made sense to me that “fish don’t feel pain”. Like, even as a kid I didn’t understand why they wouldn’t. Who would be okay with a metal hook through their mouth? Even if they didn’t feel the same kind of pain we do (I’m sure they do), there’s got to be some part of their body screaming that things aren’t okay. Add on top of that the sudden inability to breathe and it really is just torture.
I like the idea of fishing (like relaxing on a boat with a goal) but I couldn’t do it
Not really deep down, but yes
This article in particular is talking about when leaving fish in open air or ice water for the purpose of slaughter. Obviously that would hurt until the fish dies.
So long as you release them after a few minutes, they feel no pain whatsoever. Not even the hook through their mouth or gills.
Back when I used to fish a lot, they were out of the water for 30 seconds tops, and I caught the same fish multiple times within 15 minutes on several occasions. They really don’t seem to be bothered by it.
Most of them die after that.
That’s a pretty bold claim, do you have a source for that?
https://myoutdoorbasecamp.com/catch-and-release-fishing/
Up to 40% about 5-6 days mortality rate.
Not some anecdotal bullshit happening within a day and they actually tagged fish. Not just guessing. These were actual studies.
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They really don’t seem to be bothered by it
I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of vegans suddenly cried out in terror
And how do you know that?
Hah, I guess my sarcasm got missed on this comment! The premise that fish can’t feel pain because we don’t know for a certainty that they can is blatantly just mental gymnastics to justify the continued practice of a cruel hobby.
Sorry, classic case of Poe’s law! There are plenty of people who write what you said without any sarcasm, so without any indicators there’s no way to know.
Hah, I figured the second sentence was as parodically on-the-nose as I could manage without a satire indicator.
Sadly people literally write that and mean it. See the other reply:
They really don’t seem to be bothered by it.
Same reasoning behind not giving infants anesthetics during surgery.
The stats on fish survival after being caught and released is actually pretty sad. If I remember correctly there was a lengthy study that showed a survival rate of only like 40%.
Was this the fish passing after a few minutes, hours, days? If you remember at all. Was there any controlling for gill damage during the catch? I know some idiots who will hold them up by the gills for pictures, I wonder if that causes damage? Or just dying from shock? I wonder if I can find the study
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Suddenly all the cutesy indie life sims with fishing minigames don’t seem so wholesome any more
Feeling like a fish out of water sounds much darker now.
If by “release” you mean “keep alive out of the water until they die in 22 minutes” then yeah, that’s a barbaric way to release D:
Yes, I’d say so.
Catch and release is animal abuse and luckily prohibited here
I remember there was a study done on how to best slaughter swine (pigs).
The methods that were investigated included: a mechanical hit on the head, suffocation in CO2, and some other measures.
What was found was not only that the suffocation method caused significant stress in the animals, but also that the meat collected this way tasted way worse than meat collected through other slaughtering methods.
this could be relevant in this case: if fish suffocate slowly to death, meat producers might have a financial incentive to change that, to be able to sell better-quality meat, possibly at a higher price. anyways, it would make for good advertisement. that is why meat-producers (fish-producers) should take this seriously.
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But I’m hungry
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Human beings are omnivores and nature doesn’t moralize.
“I was walking along the bank of a stream when I saw a mother otter with her cubs, a very endearing sight, I’m sure you’ll agree. And even as I watched, the mother otter dived into the water and came up with a plump salmon, which she subdued and dragged onto a half submerged log. As she ate it, while of course it was still alive, the body split and I remember to this day the sweet pinkness of its roes as they spilled out, much to the delight of the baby otters, who scrambled over themselves to feed on the delicacy. One of nature’s wonders, gentlemen. Mother and children dining upon mother and children. And that is when I first learned about evil. It is built into the very nature of the universe. Every world spins in pain. If there is any kind of supreme being, I told myself, it is up to all of us to become his moral superior.”
-Terry Pratchett, Unseen Academicals
Good old natural factory meat
this depends on where you live, surely. i have open field farms all around me that cooperatively own a slaughterhouse. they sell meat in stores under one brand but you can go to any of the farms and get it directly.
This is why I primarily only eat what I shoot, or what I catch.
I only eat meat that consents. Anybody want to come over for dinner? Coincidentally, you’ll have to sign a waiver.
But on a serious note, how good is venison? Fucking delicious. You ever make chili with it? Goddamn backstrap chili. Like eating heaven.
All animals, us included, are food for other animals, and plants.
That’s what is called an “ecosystem”.
buying meat from the grocery store is not an ecosystem
I live in a no hunt region. So, unless I travel 30 minutes to hunt for 12 hrs, grocery store is the next best thing.
city says i can’t shoot the squirrels anymore tho
There are not enough squirrels. They would be extinct quick.
That’s a food web. An ecosystem incorporates the environment organisms live in and how the organisms interact within that environment. The soil, climate and weather are all part of an ecosystem.
All food is cruel. You can, at most, minimize the cruelty.
But you should know that millions of insects are killed in agriculture. Insects are indeed animals.
You can, if you want, minimize the amount of animals your presence in this world brings to an early death. But you cannot reduce it to zero no even near zero. Probably hundreds of small animals (most insects but surely many other small animals) die each day because things you do.
The line on how much do you want to minimize might be on one place for you, and that’s ok. But you have to respect other people lines as well.
This…plants feel pain. Mushrooms may actually be sentient. Everyone draws their own lines, it doesn’t make them better or worse.
There is overwhelming scientific evidence that animals feel pain and are sentient like us, and despite the pop science articles to the contrary there is no scientific evidence that plants feel pain or have sentience at all. Plants respond to stimulus in very complicated ways, that’s what we have evidence for. Don’t pretend the two are equivalent. Stop getting your ideas from sensationalist pop science garbage and read the actual studies.
So your line is at “feels pain on a level identifiable to something in the animal kingdom”
There’s a difference between actively choosing to kill an animal, and having an animal die as a consequence of another action.
Driving a car means that you’ll inevitably hit an animal at some point, but the alternative (walking) is often impractical and you’ll still try your best and stop or swerve when a cat runs into the road.
Eating meat, on the other hand, is an active choice that always involves someone killing an animal. The alternative is always there and is as easy as can be: eat something else.
But you have to respect other people lines as well.
Your personal freedom stops where someone else’s freedom begins. The question is whether you consider animals to be someone or something.
There’s a difference between actively choosing to kill an animal, and having an animal die as a consequence of another action.
It’s semi-related but this meme comes to my mind:
and also this one:
sorry for the poor quality of the second one, i couldn’t find a version with more pixels.
The fact that you don’t see the bugs being killed in the agricultural process do not mean they do not die because of your choosing. Killing bugs is a necessary part of the making of all the food you eat. It’s not an “accident” or “undeliberated”. The word “pesticide” for instance should give you a hint. Also a lot of the cleaning process of any vegetable is meant, among other things, to get rid of any bugs present.
You also, presumably, live in a house, what do you think that happened with the thousands of bugs that used to live in that plot of land. They didn’t die by accident, they died because you wanted a cozy house instead of sleeping on the grass. The clothes you wear, all consumer products you use, your phone. Millions of bug deaths could be prevented if you decided to live caveman style. If they die is your choosing. And everyone else respect that choice. Respect yourself other people choices that imply a small margin more of animal deaths.
I’m very well aware of the impact my existence has on the planet, but I can still try and minimize that impact as much as possible, even without taking it to the extreme and ending society. It’s not all or nothing.
If you want to minimize the amount of bugs killed, not eating meat is a great way to achieve that. Instead of harvesting tons of crops to then feed to animals, you could just eat those crops yourself. You’d even end up needing less space to grow your food overall, meaning you could re-naturalize a lot of farmland and create a habitat for billions of insects.
Respect yourself other people choices
How about you respect other animals right to bodily integrity.
I agree! so we should try to get locally grown food without pesticides and then people can stop coping. Somehow my family manages to grow food without it and if there’s a bug we just dust it off into the grass. People who freak out over a little bug or fruit that’s not totally perfect are actually part of the problem.
It’s pure cope to say “I can’t avoid causing suffering so me making a deliberate choice to cause MORE suffering to animals that are the same intelligence as my dog is actually fine.”
Arguing that driving a car is mandatory while eating meat is a choice must be the most braindead argument I’ve seen from a vegan.
I grew up on a farm and enjoy eating meat
Have you tried some good alternatives to meat? Like, try seitan* crumbles in a taco. With all the spices and other toppings it’s really hard to tell the difference. Also, I find it almost impossible to tell an Impossible Whopper with Cheese from a regular Whopper with Cheese, after all the glop they put on it. I know those are both bottom-of-the-barrel meat choices, but maybe branch out and try a thing or two. If you don’t like it - no biggie.
I’ve tried casually dipping my toes into the vegetarian pool with just occasional meat substitutions. Occasionally I find something that’s “No way” but more often than not, I find something that is also really tasty. It’s not meat, but it’s also tasty in a different way, so I don’t miss meat as much. I’ve found vegetarian dishes I actually like. My biggest problem however is getting enough protein in my diet when I start eating mostly veggies.
[* Seitan only if you can handle gluten. Because, it’s like 100% gluten! ]
If that were true, we wouldn’t be able to digest them. Ever tried eating a tree? Or a boulder? Those aren’t food for humans. I’m not gonna argue against moral motivations for veganism, but I will argue against factually incorrect ones.
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Life causes cancer, plaque build-up causes heart disease. Nothing was meant to do or eat or kill anything, that’s just how life evolved. Again, I’m not arguing over moral stances, I think it’s very admirable. But I mean, even just as mammals we’ve been consuming other animals for more than 200,000,000 years! The reptiles those first mammals evolved from probably ate animals, as the fish those reptiles evolved from probably did as well. Cooked meat is very likely the evolutionary edge that lead to what what we can sentience, it obviously “works” on a biological level. To argue otherwise is delusion.
If eaten in large amounts. Also, herbivore animals get cancer too.
I don’t want to cause plants pain, that’s why I eat meat
Hilarious
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Yes. It’s crazy. That’s why the vast majority of us don’t do it.
It’s one thing to be a vegetarian for health or environmental reasons.
When you try to convince people that meat==murder, you come across as a wackadoodle.
My slaughterhouse uses radon. The meat makes my testicle feel funny, and we throw up a lot. And I haven’t had hair in years. But it’s cheap! And so tender.
Without water, the delicate gill structures that exchange oxygen for carbon dioxide stick together, causing CO2 from respiration to accumulate. These rising levels trigger nociception – the body’s alarm system – which causes the fish to gasp. Eventually the elevated CO2 levels acidify the animal’s blood and cerebrospinal fluid, ultimately resulting in unconsciousness.
Holy shit. That’s horrific.
This is why net fishing is so problematic (apart from obvious environmental conserns and bycatch).
Stun your fish people. Don’t let their blood clot and lungs collapse while still conscious for multiple minutes. It’s cruel.
Let their lungs collapse?..
Yes. The g folds in front and everything shortens.
That’s why we call them gls.
You can also spike the brain of the fish. There’s stuff online about Ikejime which is supposed to be a way to quickly kill the fish to improve the quality of the meat. There’s resources online about it.
So what you’re saying is that Kurt Cobain was wrong and it’s actually not OK to eat fish because they do, in fact, have feelings?
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Ya, probably.
Something in the way…
I believe this is why Japanese fishermen will sometimes use the ikijime method where you kill the fish fast. I believe it also improves the quality of the meat too.
And yet others will prepare Ikizukuri.
Ikizukuri (生き作り), also known as ikezukuri (活け造り), (roughly translated as “prepared alive”[1]) is the preparing of sashimi (raw fish) from live seafood. In this Japanese culinary technique, the most popular sea animal used is fish, but octopus, shrimp, and lobster may also be used.[2] The practice is controversial owing to concerns about the animal’s suffering, as it is seemingly alive when served.
The restaurant may have one or several tanks of live sea animals for a customer to choose from. There are different styles in which a chef may serve the dish but the most common way is to serve it on a plate with the filleted meat assembled on top of the body.
Ikizukiri may be prepared with only three knife cuts by the chef.[1] They are usually presented with the head still whole so that customers are able to see the continuing gill movements.[3]
look at the video, it’s FUCKED UP. they removed all the meat from the fish and kept it alive attempting to breath on the plate covered in food
There are a small subset there that are pathologically obsessed with the freshness of the fish they eat. Getting parasites from barely prepped sushi is not uncommon.
With net fishing, they’re still out of the water quite a long time whilst being hauled up, dumped, and sorted before being thrown in their sorted holding tank.
that’s why there is Ikejime, the japanese method to dispatch fish
I’m still not going to tell you where my secret fishing spot is, no matter how many times you ask or scientific studies you perform.
there’s a trend on TikTok where you catfish (heh) men and ask them what their favorite fishing spot is
I was under the impression that to a fish pain is more of a “get out of there” signal than what it is to us.
is what happens to us not in fact a “get out of here” signal to us? what makes you think a fishes subjective experience of pain is any more pleasant than your own?
Our pain isn’t a “get out of here” signal, it’s a “you’ve been hurt” signal. Fish don’t have a reason to suffer. We do, because we’re social creatures.
🤔
Bring back dynamite fishing then!
Poor thing :(
I’ve heard that water-boarding is a very intense form of torture; and that is essentially about making a person feel like they are drowning. I wonder how the fish experience compares.
