I hope this post fits the content and format of this community, if not I’m sorry.
I’m just incredibly shocked by the fact that an admin of the instance lemmy.dbzer0.com is openly supporting Hamas.
Here’s a link to the comment: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/61235665/23634712
There’s an obsession with ‘If this side is bad, the other side must be good’ nowadays that has become kind of crazy.
The posted comment never represents one side as “good”. It correctly identifies one side as resisting imperialism and colonialism, while acknowledging its lack of perfection.
“Imperfect resistance” ahhh, the classic terrorist supporter dog-whistle.
Much like MAGAs “novel legal theory”
Your argument is circular and inane.
Try engaging substantively.
circular and inane
I genuinely don’t think you know what either of those words mean if you think they apply to what I said.
You are describing terrorists by using normatively loaded language to make them sound like just little guys trying their best and making little mistakes. It’s disgusting.
Israel is a terrorist state that calls as terrorists those who challenge its ambitions of occupation, apartheid, and genocide.
Being vilified by Israel is not one and the same as being fundamentally wicked.
Israel is a terrorist state
Correct. And Hamas is a terrorist organization.
Hamas is labeled terrorist because it was assigned the label by Israel.
Hamas is terrorist only as much as one terrorist entity is credible to decide exactly which groups or factions are terrorist.
More generally, terrorist simply is a label states assign to their non-state enemies.
By the same standards, the Continental Army would be terrorist, as would be essentially every belligerent that has engaged in anti-colonial struggle.
Regardless, it should be concrete facts, not abstract labels, that are used to support arguments and conclusions.
Imagine both of this can be true!!1
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the problem with tankies like that admin is that they never stop with the moral relativism. and their support of Palestine is not borne out of concern for Palestians, otherwise they wouldn’t have supported Assad’s ethnic cleansing campaign which was so brutal, you’d think it as something Israel would do. alas, they support “anti-imperialists” whose moral compass and politics are practically indistinguishable from that of Zionists
to give you a more practical example, no one can deny that Azov is correct in fighting Russia. that doesn’t automatically make them valiant and brave anti-colonial heroes just because the Ukrainian people are fighting a war of national liberation. some groups are bad no matter how dire their local context is.
You have no business complaining of someone else allegedly relying on a straw men.
Much of the problem is that you assume others follow your own narrow method of thought, by which every facet of the world is cast along thin and fixed lines separating good versus evil.
are my moral lines too thin and fixed or are you simply too apathetic to stop fencesitting? i know the watchers at home know the obvious answers, stay tuned for the evening news 📺
You are being dishonest, simplistic, and obscurantic.
I find no value in further discussion.
Goodbye to you and your army of absurd little straw men.
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I’ve personally visited Palestine, I’ve spoken to Palestinians, my family are Zionists (I’ve heard their arguments plenty). This is a personal issue for me, additionally I don’t believe I have ever made a comment on Assad. There is nothing immoral about opposing the Zionist regime.
Anarchists are not tankies.
Also, the reason some leftists supported Assad was a hope to hasten the collapse of US imperialism, which causes massive death and suffering around the world. Criticizing such a stance as misguided is credible only if accompanied by a comparably critical stance against the even more deadly abuses of US imperialism.
anarchists arent tankies but Lenin Glazers like the admin irrefutably are.
Criticizing such a stance as misguided is credible only if accompanied by a comparably critical stance against the even more deadly abuses of US imperialism
there isn’t a single anti-Assad anarchist that wouldn’t also critique the US. nice try, maybe leave the strawman arguments at the door next time
The posted comment never mentions Lenin.
You are being deliberately dishonest.
Also, you are the one who just now presented not one, but several straw men.
When did I imply that “there [is] a single anti-Assad anarchist that wouldn’t also critique the US”? Again, you are being dishonest.
I’m not being dishonest, I’m just not coddling your feelings
What an absurd defense.
Once again, you deflect with an accusation that is completely unsubstantiated, an obvious non sequitur.
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My point is that good and bad mean nothing to the dead and the starving, the average Palestinian doesn’t care that Hamas did bad things because there is a military occupation. Morality is for the privileged who don’t have to worry about their next meal. They deserve to have their material conditions improved until they can worry about morality.
Yep, quite dangerous to forget where the line of decency must be drawn.
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And before we can do anything to make anything better we must assign blame.
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Oh goddamn it. I just wanted an instance that didn’t go down all the time.
Feel free to ignore this nonsense, admins like myself are people with our own opinions.
shitlibs
But then in their other comment:
I cant speak for anyone else but on a personal level I don’t tend to agree that calling people “tankies” and “red fash” is productive when referring to other leftists
OK, for all intents and purposes, it’s a tankie.
Its a simple distinction, I respect all leftists of all types. Liberals however are not leftists, if you support capitalism you are not a leftist (this includes socdems and mixed economy demsocs)
Supporting dictators is antithetical to leftism. Tankies are not leftist by definition.
Well Hamas is a resistance group…
That might be true by some definition, but doesn’t make it inherently leftist and worth supporting. Hamas is still mainly endorsing Islamist fundamentalism, which is definitely an authoritarian and oppressive ideology.
That doesn’t make it good by default. What they resist, how they do it, and what they achieved is what actually matters.
Preach!
Anyone who uses the term “shitlibs” shouldn’t ever be taken seriously about anything.
I don’t condemn Hamas for fighting Israel but I also don’t support Hamas the Right-Wing organization created and funded by Israeli intelligence for the express purpose of weakening the PLO and preventing Palestinian unity. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if orders to launch the Oct 7 attackers came straight from Netanyahu. Some of the biggest protests to ever rock Israel occurred in 2023 from January till Oct 7 and Netanyahu would probably be in prison right now if not for the Hamas attack allowing his trial to be repeatedly delayed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli_judicial_reform_protests
I’m sorry but stating that Netanyahu ordered October 7th sounds more like a conspiracy than anything.
yeah but you’re a genocide supporter so who cares about what you think?
I’m glad for you, you know. The last 2 years I was recieving phone calls about friends in gaza dying. There were one armed forced defending them. I’m glad you’re sheltered enough to think they’re the bad guys.
I’m not directly making the accusation but I do think the odds are much higher than “far fetched”. Especially if you’re topically familiar with Mossad. The protests were unprecedented and the timing very convenient.
Good thing they said they wouldn’t be surprised if that occurred, and NOT that they believed that, huh?
Gazans perpetrating a surprise attack on Israel is, despite the irony, unsurprising.
Further, Netanyahu has benefited from it personally and politically.
Netanyahu arranging or ordering the attacks, however, would require a conspiracy, for which there is absolutely not one shred of evidence. The likelihood is vanishingly small.
Now how does the same admin feel about Bandera, Azov, the Russian Volunteer Corps, and the Prigozhin mutiny?
Prigozhin wasn’t fighting against imperialism, he was a Russian imperialist himself. his only problem was that he wasn’t in control of it
Hamas is in the same boat. They’re a jihadist group who want to impose their beliefs on to everyone else through violence. They themselves are imperialist. Just because Israel is that doesn’t mean they aren’t either.
ah yes, fighting for survival in a concentration camp is the same as Israeli settlers threatening to assimilate the Middle East into Greater Israel, I am very smart and totally not geopolitics-brained
Hamas isn’t fighting for survival, they directly responsible for turning Gaza into what it is today. Gaza back in 2005 and 2006 was a much better place, and Palestinians were actually optimistic about their future for once. Israel elected a left wing government for once, they unilaterally decided to entirely exit Gaza, they destroyed their settlements there, and Palestine held it’s second democratic election in its history. Things were actually looking okay, relatively speaking.
Just follow the timeline. Hamas got elected into power in 2006, this is what they did in chronological order:
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Jan 2006 - Hamas wins the Palestinian legislative elections, and they immediately went back on their word by refusing to acknowledge Palestine’s past agreements with Israel. This led to the US, EU, Israel, and other countries to sanction Gaza and halt foreign aid until they met the terms they agreed to.
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March 2006 - Hamas declared war on the Fatah and the PA, and they literally started fighting each other on the streets for the next 15 months. It was basically a civil war. This caused a rift between the West Bank and Gaza, and destroyed the hope of Palestinian unity.
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June 2006 - Hamas carried out a cross border attack into Israel and kidnaps Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. This caused Israel to launch the biggest military offensive against Gaza in years.
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June 2007 - Hamas violently seized control of Gaza from the PA, killing and expelling Fatah officials and put the final nail the coffin for a cohesive Palestinian state. Now Palestine was not only physically split into two territories, but each territory now had its own government that hated the other. They effectively turned the Palestinian nation into two weaker quasi states.
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September 2007 - Israel and Egypt imposed a blockade on Gaza following Hamas’s takeover after their very open, direct, and repeated threats of attacking both countries every opportunity they get. This tanked Gaza’s economy.
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December 2008 - Hamas launched hundreds of rockets against Israel, and this led to the 2008-200 Gaza war. In 3 weeks, Israel decisively won, and Gaza suffered heavy damages. Tens of thousands of destroyed buildings, hundreds of dead civilians, and a worsening humanitarian crises.
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October 2011 - Hamas released Gilad Shalit in a prisoner exchange, but they gained absolutely nothing from holding him hostage.
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November 2012 - Hamas launched thousands of rockets towards Israel than in 2008, which led to the 2012 Gaza war. Again, Israel, decisively won, and the results for Gaza were the same as last time except they were a bit better because this war was way shorter.
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July 2013 - Egypt found out that Hamas has been digging tunnels into the Sinai without the Egyptian government’s approval for the purpose of smuggling weapons and soldiers in and out of Gaza. They immediately responded by shutting down the tunnel, and upping their restrictions. All the good will that was extended to Gaza under Mosri was wiped out by this.
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June 2014 - Hamas militants kidnapped and murder three Israeli teenagers. This led to the 2014 Gaza war. Once Again, Israel decisively won. Gaza, yet again, suffered the same fate where they suffered the vast majority of deaths and damages. Except this war was longer (over 6 weeks), deadlier, and more destructive than the last two combined. Over 2000 Gazans lost their lives, around 65% were civilians.
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2015/2016 - Israel and Egypt found even more Hamas tunnels that they used to smuggle weapons and soldiers. The blockades and restrictions were already in place so that didn’t change much, but it demonstrated that Hamas lacked the ability to plan out a genuine military strategy. They’ve been doing the same thing again and again for a decade despite failing every time. This caused the international community, especially the Arab world, to treat Hamas as a terrorist group, and started working towards building diplomatic relations with Israel.
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October 2017 - Hamas signed a reconciliation agreement with the PA, but the deal collapsed within months because Hams refused to give up armed control of the strip even though the deal they signed mandated it. As usual, they didn’t follow through with their agreements.
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March 2018 - Hamas hijacked a series of very successful peaceful marches organized by independent activists in Gaza and started using them as a cover to launch cross border raids against Israel. Israel retaliated any time they did, and thousands of Palestinian civilians were injured or killed as a result. These protests were originally supposed to last for about a month and half, but Hamas kept them and the raids going for nearly 2 years… which killed any momentum the original activists built up.
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May 2021- Hamas launched thousands of rockets at Israeli cities, which led to the 2021 Gaza war. Israel decisively won in 11 days. Same results as before for Gaza.
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April 2023 - Hamas launched hundreds of rockets over the course of two months as a retaliation for the Al Aqasa mosque fiasco that happened during that time. Israel launched air attacks and bombed Gaza.
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October 2023 - Well there’s no need to explain this one or anything beyond because everyone and their mother knows what happened since. Needless to say, this was one of the biggest blunders any governing political entity in the 21st, especially when considering the consequences in hindsight.
The point of this whole write up is to simply demonstrate that Hamas has not been a force for good for the Palestinians in any capacity. They are directly responsible for turning Gaza into what it is today. It is their actions that directly led to the suffering to millions of Gazans for 20 years. This obviously doesn’t absolve Israel from their actions, but just because Israel has fucked over the Palestinians, that doesn’t mean Hamas hasn’t done so either. They’ve been the biggest obstacle in the way of Palestinians achieving literally anything. Can you imagine how differently things would’ve turned out if Hamas choose a slightly different course of action that the ones they actually did? This notion that Hamas is some resistance group that’s fighting the good fight for the survival of the Palestinians is complete bullshit. This idea only exists in the minds of Westerners who don’t know any better. The current Israeli government is filled with terrorists and war criminals, but so it Hamas. They’re not the friends of anybody and they shouldn’t be praised or defended because they’re genuinely awful.
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How do you imagine a country ruled by Hamas, provided it had enough power and resources?
Im not born in Gaza, I myself am not Palestinian, while the issue is personal I think the Palestinians themselves should decide not some enlightened western liberal.
to answer your dirty edit, the country of Palestine doesn’t even exist so they’d have no country to rule over. this isn’t me taking a jab at Palestinians but acknowledging just how thorough the settler state has been at eliminating any “two state solution”. and the governments of the world are too excited about eliminating Palestinians that they’d never allow a non-Zionist aligned party to rule over anything.
I mean if you’re not interested in fully entertaining the hypothetical, realistically, Prigozhin was very unlikely to achieve much either. Not only would there be a threat to his legitimacy and life from Putin himself, but also even if he somehow got to Putin, it would drastically destabilize the government and open the door to a revolution or another coup. In authoritarian and fascist countries like Russia, everything rests on the figure of the leader.
Moreover, there’s a difference between Prigozhin criticizing from the backseat and actually being the president. The West alone would be trying hard to offer him enough to get him to stop the war, and he’d not be as ideologically and historically entrenched in it as Putin to say no. An oligarch like him is highly opportunist.
they might’ve started out that way but at this point they’re merely fighting to stay alive. which can’t be said about Prigozhin because nobody forced him to go fight Ukraine
If we’re talking how it is rather than how it could be, Prigozhin is dead.
Simple they’re paid guns, this isn’t the gotcha moment you thought it was.
I’m just curious -
Starting with the clear and obvious provision that Israel has stolen Palestinian land, and has been killing Palestinians for over half a century -
What is the “right” way for Palestinians to resist Israel? How should they fight back? Please, paint a picture for me in a way that shows how they can effectively stop Israel from killing more people, and stealing ever more land, until the Palestinians have been completely wiped out.
Consider, while you’re at it, that the US has been arming Israel for decades, and has been using it’s own military force to prevent other countries in the region from holding Israel to account. Sure, Iran could do something, except that the US has sold Israel the arms and technology to stop Iranian retaliation, and has also had Iran under embargo for so long that Iran is a disaster. (Not saying that the ayatollah is good, but maybe if the US hadn’t been propping up the shah, we wouldn’t have a religious nutter in charge.)
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He’s basically using an utterly irrational argument to defend an already 100% confirmed terrorist group!
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