Imagine the world we’d live in if those corpo fucks didn’t screw over Bernie
Hey, it was her TURN
That is true. Have to be fair.
Or persecuted Nixon, or Reagan, or Bush Sr, or didn’t give up when gore “lost” to bush jr
No see taking office when elected by hoth popular AND electoral vote is divisive and bad politics. You dumbfuck commies understand nothing about politics. Now drink my slushy poop without making any faces and be my slave forever OR YOU ARE LITERALLY A FASCIST AND IM CALLING ICE ON YOU
You dumbfuck commies understand nothing about politics. Now drink my slushy poop without making any faces and be my slave forever OR YOU ARE LITERALLY A FASCIST AND IM CALLING ICE ON YOU
Ah yes totally goes with saying we should punish/investigate criminals instead of going we must only look forward not back so the country can heal. We can’t do anything about past crimes
Doing anything about past crimes is impossible, sorry. Also currently ongoing crimes.
*prosecuted
Not like they did anything so not really much of a difference
Or if harris had literally a single electoral group she didnt actively spray shit on
Or if clinton hadnt helped trump win
Or…
He would have been absolutely hamstrung by the the bullshit factory that is the legislature, and nothing good would have happened that wasn’t undone immediately by the next administration.
Also true.
Not that there’s really any “winning” here but it’s nice to dream of the imaginary reprieve we never got.
Life is pain, highness. Anyone who says different is selling you something.
He didn’t need congress to sell weapons for genocide.
He just needed congress when it was shit he didn’t want to do.
I got this shit from him after Oct. 7 so don’t be so sure
He has moved away from being this outright shit since then, I will concede.
Probably better than what we have now in many ways but don’t get your hopes too high from people who belong to the current establishment. In europe plenty of “good” politicians from alternative parties won elections and guess what? Once in power they didn’t do shit of what they promised and ended up licking the boot or corporations like anyone else.
Those millions of corpo fucks voting in primaries, how evil of them.
We’d have an additional 4 years before Trump fascism.
Cool.
At least you’re admitting Bernie would have won in 2016.
But yeah, I’m similarly pessimistic about the 2016 Bernie alt-history. Too many conservative democrats would have stood against his agenda.
The electability argument has been proven to be false —Kamala lost, Zorhan won—, conservative dems don’t offer to improve people’s lives materially. What is the positive case for conservative democrats at this point? (Other than “They aren’t as bad as Trump”.)
Too many conservative democrats would have stood against his agenda.
I mean, they did with Obama. It’s why the ACA we got is identical to what Clinton ran on.
Here’s a fun idea: how about no more presidents?
Yes, a prime minister is certainly better.
Definitely Russia.
Liberals have no answers for the current political crisis. And instead of caving to that reality and showing some humility, they’ll try to rally the troops to “VoTe BlUe nO MaTtEr wHo” as if the Democratic party signifies all good with politics, while Republicans signify all bad.
A lot of these people don’t have the political science education or distrust in the current party to be able to see the Democratic party for what it is: controlled opposition.
Why do liberals think Bernie Sanders and AOC are leaders in the party that draw so much attention? It’s not because of some focus group. It’s because of the anti-rich world view both candidates hold.
Per usual, a Leftist means being right too soon.
VoTe BlUe nO MaTtEr wHo"
We should as a last resort.
The meme has a point. As leftist we haven’t done much to primary dems, nor to make a separate party. This leaves us having to pick for the lest bad option.
Its a big unforced error to ignore elections.
As leftist we haven’t done much to primary dems
In fairness, the party opposes primary challengers from the left (and only the left. They didn’t protect Cori Bush or Jamaal Bowman like they protected Henry Cuellar) much harder than they have ever opposed fascism.
In fairness, the party opposes primary challengers from the left
True, but that doesn’t mean we should roll over because there is opposition. We should keep trying to primary. And we should build out as much of an independent party as we can.
It is our movement. We are the ones building it. And we should have done more of this decades ago.
True, but that doesn’t mean we should roll over because there is opposition.
It also doesn’t mean there’s been a lack of trying.
Sure, but our modern fellow lefties do discourage trying.
For example in this thread @AntiBullyRanger@ani.social was asking why we no longer have a black panther party all while telling me all the reasons why they are not interested in showing up to vote.
Engaging in elections is still one way we can engage in the public space and start to make some changes in a favorable direction. We can’t keep wondering why electoralism is not in our favor if we are also not even trying.
Like i said in the other side of the thread; if you can get your supporters to show up and vote you have credibility to mobilize for other things.
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look at what fascists are doing this election too.
And your take is to just step out of their way? Strange resistance, but lmk how that works out for your company captain.
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Never said to ignore elections. Stop with this strawman ultra Leftist bullshit
Never said to ignore elections.
Lot of our fellow lefties on lemmy do. Stick around and you will see the “you think you can vote your way out”.
I wouldn’t say elections will solve everything, but we keep neglecting it as a form of organization to our own detriment.
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You may have missed some information here.
Btw, @Resonosity@lemmy.dbzer0.com this is a case in point of what I was referring to. @AntiBullyRanger@ani.social is in one of the lefties that is saying we should ignore voting. They are not wrong that the dems don’t represent us, but they are also not willing to show up to primaries to move them as left as possible, nor will they likely be interested in splitting. I’d like to be wrong, but it is all to common on lemmy.
Which means the meme will hold and we will still be left with no influence for another election cycle. Its a massive unforced error to ignore elections. They are not the end all be all, but they will add credibility to our movement. Being able to get millions of followers to show up one day to tick some lines on a paper means you are also able to get them to organize in other ways too. We only hurt our own credibility and presence in peoples minds. As our own party or subsection of the dems (like the tea party of sorts) it does not matter; tho it would be nice to be our own faction.
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Bro if you can’t be bothered to vote I have no confidence you will show up to back me up with a rifle.
These ultra Leftists will cry for communism but haven’t done shit to build it from the ground up. They will criticize Progressives and Dem Socs for organizing while they themselves remain as keyboard warriors.
I think Lenin made it very clear that we are to operate within the existing societal systems before any revolution is had. That means voting. And as you point out, that also means primary-ing bad Democrats.
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Even if you did, because someone else who we see as undesirables we will never lift a finger for occasionally murdee for fun or because theyre getting uppity but broadly half tolerate most of the time because theyre fucking stupid enough to vote for us a lot of the time didn’t vote for them this time, because they were holding out for an option that does not endorse their family being murdered with their (and your) tax dollars .
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I don’t pay taxes.
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No you’ll catch
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That’s the definition of democracy, yes.
By this logic, 1920s German Jews were responsible for Hitler.
Nope, Germans who voted for Hitler are responsible for Hitler.
So, you agree then that Trump is a result of Trump voters?
And you agree that nonvoters did nothing to secure the Trump presidency?
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You don’t even know what my country is…
It’s a safe guess that a subset of redditors and fediverse users speaking english will narrow things down to: western europe, north america, scandinavia, expats in rok/japan/singapore/hk, n.zealand, or aus. no need to be obtuse.
Ok, keep trying.
okay. little st james
How can we vote with Russia amping up its Voter Interference Beam and Disinformation Ray?
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Leftists: you have two years to get a candidate that doesn’t support genocide through the primaries, and if you can’t, just vote for the one that supports genocide the least.
Radlibs: so you want Trump to win
primaries
This is missing scare quotes.
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Someone who takes on radical aesthetics but is hell bent on preserving the neoliberal status quo. Imagine someone with blue hear wearing a pussy hat celebrating that Meloni was elected.
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As a European, I have to say that the libs in this example are right, because the US voting system is completely fucked with the electoral college, winner-takes-all and all that gerrymandering (and soon more).
So they either have to vote dem (however bad their candidate is) and then unfuck it, so they can do a real election afterwards, or violently install a leftist government and proper democracy.
The problem is the Democrats know this and have no intention to unfuck anything at all
Tried it voted Biden, who didn’t want to leave power even while he was losing it occasionally. Eventually when he did stop running, it was Kamala who thought it would be better to court right.
Yup. The Democratic party
leadershipis either so inept that they think a strong economy is a replacement for social welfare at home and abroad or they’re actively working to fill the same pockets as the right.They (dem
leadership) cave on these shutdowns because they got their PR and they’re fine being fascist as the alternative would impact their bank account.I hope I’m wrong this time, i would be so happy to be wrong, but it seems insane to expect the pattern to change under the same
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“Dem leadership” is just accessible language for the libs. Otherwise they assume you didn’t vote and scream at you for being the problem because the only solution is voting dem and anything else is helping the right.
Otherwise they assume you didn’t vote and scream at you for being the problem because the only solution is voting dem and anything else is helping the right.
They assume that about everyone to their left no matter what.
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Eh fair. You might be right, i might be getting worn down by the trolls. Which i guess is their goal…
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Your 2 party system has been ridiculed even by Marx,
Sauce please.
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from 1870
Hate to be that guy, but those were two entirely different parties.
But we still have a two party system and the critique is still accurate.
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I guess I should tag you so I notice, but I literally didn’t even read your user name.
I just reply to what I feel like replying to. I guess this is a small site. I have never once looked at your comment history.
I don’t even think about you bro. I promise you.
They literally didn’t say that. They said Kamala is worse because she tried to “court the right.” What is happening here? Are you all huffing lead paint? Where am I?
Hey thanks for delaying Trump’s second term those four years. I spent those four years helping My partner recover from its crippling disabilities and working on My career. I don’t know if we’re going to be in a financial place to get it out of the US before Trump sends ICE after trans disabled people and puts it in a concentration camp, but because of you we have a chance. Keep up the good work.
As a side note, do you think a GoFundMe to get it out of the country and to My country would get much traction?
Oh wow, you voted TWICE and it didn’t fix everything???
Definition of foolishness song the same thing and expecting different outcomes.
So, that’s been the tactic for a bunch of decades now. How’s that been going for the working class?
For a bunch of decades, they haven’t been executed on the streets in broad daylight. How is it going now?
Pretty fucking poorly, which is why I’m not crazy about the strategy we’ve been using for the past decades. You understand these events didn’t just happen out of nowhere, right? They’re a result of the things that happened before them.
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Real “if a democrat were doing this we’d be at brunch right now” energy.
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As long as they don’t drone strike entire weddings in Yemen, as long as they don’t explicitly protect the torturers of Abu Ghraib, as long as they don’t pass a copy of Romneycare but more right wing, as long as they don’t send 40B to a nation actively engaged in ethnic cleansing, as long as they don’t expand upon and set the stage for worsening the border policy that is already draconian, as long as they don’t send care packages to bankers responsible for the economy tanking. When will you moronic liberals get it through your thick fucking skulls that this is not about optics but about policy. Jesus fucking christ
The problem with your logic though is you think it just started one day. We’ve been on this road for a while. Trump doesn’t exist without Bill Clinton’s deregulation spree. Donald Trump wouldn’t nearly be this powerful without Obama’s expansion of the surveillance state. Neoliberals have contributed to what we’re seeing right now and it’s important not to forget that. During the Bush Administration all the neoliberals voted for the Patriot Act which basically created everything that’s killing people in the street right now.
Yeah, except they didn’t use it to kill people. The crime is not buying the car, or sharpening the knife, the crime is driving somewhere and stabbing people.
Yeah, except they didn’t use it to kill people.
And they never asked themselves what would happen when it inevitably fell into nefarious hands. Because neoliberals exist to prepare a comfortable environment for fascism to flourish in.
Again, making knifes and selling knifes is not a crime. Stabbing people is.
Taking commissions to make knives from people wearing shirts that say “I’m going to stab you as soon as you make me a knife” isn’t a crime. But it’s foolish and gets you stabbed.
Which is why you support anyone who does it.
They were absolutely killing people you’re out of mind if you think otherwise.
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Obama literally assinated American citizens. And don’t forget that people have died in the same types of camps before when his man Tom Homann was working for him. Its all connected.
Also neoliberals being okay murdering innocent people just cause they werent born here being old news is also the same problem.
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Logic would say that’s the thing to do. But our lib party won’t do anything with a win though. In fact the worse a GOP candidate is, the more permission our DNC feels they have to run a dumbass.
As a european i have to say that we have plenty of idiots and fascists in power here too. As long as people get their information from biased and corrupted sources they will never know who to vote for in a democracy other than the figures that get advertised the most.
Trump got elected twice because the Democratic party kept nominating corrupt, evil people who were buddies with Dick Cheney.
If all it takes to justify a dictator despot is framing the opposition as being in any way that is corrupt and evil, even if somewhat justified, then the electoral system has already lost. That’s Orban’s playbook, too. Funny how the people who usually do this don’t tend to employ the same clear cut terms for the actual dictator despot.
“The opposition”
First past the post is a fundamentally flawed alpha test of democracy, I agree.
If the democrats had nominated Bernie Sanders in 2016, then Trump would have never happened.
Nominating evil losers like Clinton or Harris leads to election losses.
Good thing it lies in the theoretical so you don’t have to bother pointing out anything corrupt or evil about him, huh. Although at the time, he was also demonized considerably. He’s a great safe spot for propaganda what-ifs, since he’s unlikely to ever be mainstreamed by democrats, but having said that your comment still sounds astoundingly naive because of its suggestion that even in 2016 elections weren’t being manipulated.
That’s the biggest problem with your comments, that you try to portray the candidates as the cause when it is a significant part of the system, from the gerrymandering, to the social network manipulation, to the purchase and control of local and regional media networks in the districts that mattered, to the lobbyists financing, contributing, and sabotaging for their candidates, all to place the labels of “evil”, “corrupt”, “loser” to candidates several orders of magnitude less than the current candidate.
It cannot serve any other purpose to misinform and disarm opposition by eliminating the possibility of any step by step solution over the “we must choose the sacrosanct most virtuous god emperor to save us!” I frankly think you’d be tooting Bernie Sanders flaws if he was more likely to be mainlined into a candidate, because yes, he’s been the better candidate for a while even if the process will not make him electable. Doesn’t mean that there aren’t better alternatives to dictator despot, but no matter how evil, how inhumane, how despicable Trump is, I suspect your conditions will always be placed in such a way as throw insults and discourage support of the clearly flawed but still nowhere as bad alternative. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but regardless I still thank your efforts because it does eventually push for much needed candidates like Zelenski in Ukraine to be voted in, although the US seems a bit hopeless in this regard so much so that state secession seems like a solution it might need to resort to.
Look, if you nominate bad candidates, you’ll get bad electoral results. Anyone who wasn’t a complete moron (or corrupt) could see that Democrats lost the recent elections due to the bad choices in the candidates they nominated.
Implying that the dictator despot convict scammer wasn’t a worse candidate. The world you preach is as simplistic as the words you like to throw around.
Did I say Trump was better? Trump is pure evil.
But if you want to win elections, then you need to nominate popular candidates. It is as simple as that. You can’t nominate horrible candidates and expect to win.
Sort of like how Biden lost in 2020. Your world view is simplistic and so are you, and that’s assuming the best possibility.
Don’t you know you cant criticize any politician because they may be the appointed “lesser evil” possibly in several years.
You can criticize, protest, fundraise against them. But if despite all your efforts the boring democrat wins the primary, don’t let the child fucker win. That’s all.
You can criticize, protest, fundraise against them.
And you’ll call them trumpers every single time they do.
Nope, it’s when they say “I’ll let trump win before I vote for the Democrat I like less”.
They’re telling you their standards. You don’t want them to have standards because, and I cannot stress this enough, you want everyone to support genocide and nothing else just like you.
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It’s two bowls of shit. Stop pretending one is pizza just because you love the taste of both and don’t want anyone to have a choice to eat something that isn’t the shit you love.
The thing I love the most about this post is that I now know which users to block.
The only thing good with Trump is that, now Americans get to experience at least 1% of their of imperialism & suffer.
I am a non-Western person whose country has been tariffed to hell, yes I can say that. In fact look at this one video explaining why American don’t fight back.
Also the comments section is proving my point wonderfully.
Yeah, on a certain level some of us deserve this for spending previous decades choosing to be apolitical and uninvolved. But also our government has spent decades using violence and economics to teach us to be complacent. Like, they weren’t going to let that Martin Luther King situation happen twice.
The only thing I can do is pray that Trump distracts the Western world long enough for tye global south to engage in nuclear proliferation.
Followed up by multi-polar economic systems & then a coordinated embargo on the West for 10 years (more or less).
A multi-polar world is a better world.
Godspeed, guys. Gonna be plenty of people needing trade partners that don’t fuck them over and coup their leaders. No reason why that couldn’t end up being you
Good video.
I am a non-Western person whose country has been tariffed to hell, yes I can say that.
See its funny because the minimum list is at least 75 countries.
But realistically its like 150+.
Shot in the dark, West or South Asia?
Global south, that’s all I’ll say.
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Leftists: also i am not going to run myself
Leftists: [runs]
Liberals: wow you really really want Trump to win
Leftists: [runs]
*gets sabotaged by the DNC who would rather have Trump win.
Leftists: [Runs]
CIA: Rest in pieces, motherfucker.
No leftist has evee been involved in electoral polutics, it’s true.
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The ones who do get ratfucked or killed by the CIA.
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If a leftist candidate can’t beat a liberal
in primaries that liberals run dishonestly for their own benefit. When they have them at all.
I’m sure elections against Republicans are all fair and run for the public good…
All the more reason to not second guess the electorate and force garbage genocidal candidates on them. Though it’s nice to see that democrats can use the justification that republicans do it too, but only when it suits the cause of shutting out the progressives you prefer trump to.
Do you expect the power structure to bow to your moral superiority and hand you the election wrapped up with a bow on it?
A candidate has to fight and organize the community to support them. If they aren’t politically savvy enough to win public opinion over literal genocide supporters, they don’t have what it takes to survive in politics.
Do you expect the power structure to bow to your moral superiority and hand you the election wrapped up with a bow on it?
I expect the “democratic” party to live up to its name and have equitable rules for its primaries that it adheres to. And also to actually hold primaries consistently and not just make up excuses to disregard the will of the people.
I get that you like the system that puts genocide supporters like yourself in office.
Because libs vote in lib primaries?
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Dont do real activism, just vote!
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And vote! Which are functionally two different things! Yeah!
You mean like effective messaging targeting people outside our cause, (not purely performative) political action towards achievable goals, and compromise / coalition building?
Anarchists: famously hostile to local civil infrastructure
Biden 2024
Hey so its actually that we have 2 years to uplift leftwing ideals until the general election, at which point we vote for the candidate who wants to bring the Torment Nexus levels down a little so that the Candidate who wants to double the Torment Nexus loses and we have a few years of lower torment while we uplift leftwing ideals again.
To clarify: not lower than now, both candidates want a torment nexus, but one wanrs to build it faster and not worry aboyt whether the orphan bones are fair trade.
Hang on there, because with some issues, they do want to reduce the torment below current levels, and i think that should matter
reduce it below
Citation needed.
Most libs want to provide free healthcare and fight climate change. Both items would reduce harm and suffering and genocide* domestically and abroad. *inequities health outcomes are tantamount to genocide; climate change also has genocidal effects
Still less than double the Torment Nexus and that’s what’s important. I don’t think it’s worth quibbling over the precise amounts even if it was 2 vs 1.99990
Absplutely! Now grab a hamner comrade, i bet if we put our full communist organizing mechanism towards this, our torment nexus won’t be as big as theirs, but it will be ready sooner, more durable, and more than three times as efficient!
