If we can’t be bothered to vote in the primaries, wjy would anyone believe us that a progressive candidate would somehow lure millions more to vote?
As I know the comments will be, uhhh, fun, I’ve turned off reply notifications.
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Progressive here. I vote in every primary and try to rally support for the most progressive in my coalition. Come November, I vote against fascists which means voting for Democrats because they’re obviously better in every way.
If you don’t vote or vote third party, congratulations, it means you were duped by right-wing propaganda or don’t understand how our election system works and the inevitable binary outcome that comes with FPTP and whole you didn’t give fascists +2, you gave them +1.
This.
Not voting or voting for a third party hands a win to people you don’t want winning. The system is not fair, at all – but that doesn’t mean we should operate in a way we know will lead to a bad outcome. We have plenty of evidence that third parties in the US don’t really make a dent, but they do sway elections (and generally not how you want). The rest is idealism.
It’s also a good example of why single-issue voting means you’ll almost always get more collateral damage, even if you get representation you want on that specific issue.
It is really sad you think you are right
You should try arguments next time
I am not prepared for the olympics level mental gymnastics necessary to explain participating in the US election system.
I am not prepared
Don’t worry. We know.
Trouble is, sometimes voting for either of the two major parties hands a vote to people whom you don’t want winning, and you know it will lead to a bad outcome: The march toward some flavor of authoritarianism has been obvious for decades. One major party welcomes it, and the other major party doesn’t not welcome it. While the system isn’t fair, neither is life, and sometimes the system itself is so flawed that it falls apart even if you play by its unfair rules.
So what was the plan? Democrats win every election forever and ever, amen? The party was cooperating with the Republicans, actively or passively, to put the pieces of an authoritarian system into place. Was that supposed to be fine because Democrats would always be in control of the machinery of repression? Despite the long history of U.S. voters ping-ponging between parties?
Em dash, AI profile pic… Hmmm…
Looks like a double dash – to me, not M
Fair enough, I assumed LLMs used the markdown double dash for their em dash, mixed with the AI profile pic, and general bad taste of a slop comment, I judged too quickly.
There are (rare though they may be) people like me who actually know the ALT code for em-dash by heart and have used it for years long before AI. Thanks to people now just assuming I’ve switched to double-dashes mostly.
The compose key exists, too (and wincompose for Windows users) — makes it easy to use. And all sorts of other symbols like ¿Por qué no los dos? and I can uſe the old long-‘s’ character eaſily… (and that’s a real ellipsis)
And Mac has alt - for –, and shift alt - for —. We use the English (Macintosh) keyboard layout on our Linux boxen, so we’ve got that too!
Holy shit… I had no clue that wincompose exists. For years, I’ve wanted exactly this. I’m so glad that someone had the same idea, skill, and time to create this. Thank you for sharing!
You’re welcome to respond to the “slop comment” if you can actually come up with something substantive. Otherwise, it’s not a good look.
What is there to reply to? This conversation has been had a million times here, mixed with what I assumed was an em dash and an AI profile pic, sorry if it’s ‘not a good look’ to call out the slop.
What slop? You think a nearly 3-year old account is AI generated?
Just because you’ve never seen an em-dash before AI doesn’t mean that em-dash = AI. And btw, I never even used one.
I’ve gotten more down votes saying exactly this.
In 2020 Biden won with 81.3 million votes. In 2024 Trump won with 77.3 million votes. All we had to do to avoid the mess we are in is turn out with the same “enthusiasm” we had for Biden in 2020.
It’s the job of a politician to generate that enthusiasm.
I would argue that it is the civic duty of a citizen to vote. Enthusiasm is irrelevant.
We simply know that people are more likely to vote when they are enthusiastic. You can either keep telling people “do better” and keep losing, or you can accept human nature and use it to your advantage by running a candidate that people actually want.
People should have been planty enthusiastic to get anyone but Trump as President, but that shows how strong the misinformation machine is.
Personally I’ve always favored a system like Australia where voting is compulsory and punished with a small fine. That filters out the principled from the merely lazy.
No, it simply shows that the Dem strategy of “putting up a turd that doesn’t stink quite as bad as the other one” isn’t enough to actually win when it matters.
We are back to the original point that people are so determined to blame Democrats that they sabotage their own efforts to get something better.
Yes, but they do that only when they want you to vote. Imagine making it compulsory to vote, and then also suppressing your ability to vote… Then the fine is just a new tax and you still don’t get to vote.
I fucking loathe this mindset. I mean I hate it with such a passion. Cuz all you’re saying is you don’t care if you lose. You don’t care if the worst happens to all of us you’d rather not change your ways. Cause guess what? You’re wrong.
You can say that until the cows come home but people turn out to vote when they’re spoken to and engaged. Thinking anything else means you’re okay with losing. And I resent the fuck out of my life being put in jeopardy because some of you are okay with losing.
I agree with this, but that doesn’t convince people to actually turn out and vote.
A politician needs to be able to generate enthusiasm to get people to vote
You’re not wrong, but they sure didn’t make it easy.
I agree with this strategy but I think you have to also concede that anti-electoralists have some good arguments too. Since voting is relatively low investment, my personal view is that it’s best to pursue a variety of strategies. But for the vast majority of Americans for whom voting is their only political activity, I would challenge them to figure out what the next step is in becoming a more effective political actor. Frankly, there are a variety of actions a person can take that are way more impactful than voting. And this moment demands more from us than passive participation.
Stockholm syndrome at its finest.
Americans look at the most broken system ever, and you’d think they would come up with ways of fixing it, but instead, they double down on this logic of “lesser evil”, and fool themselves into believing that’s “good”.
It is not.
Choosing the lesser evil means the end result is still evil, it just takes longer.
But sure, disregard all evidence waves arms around that shows the current system is beyond redemption, and line up for the national pastime of “Pick Your Pedo” as a good little boy.
Hit me with those downvotes, I’ll ping you when the next presidential election comes around to ask you how your way’s been working out.
What else would you propose they do?
Because doing nothing only helps fascists. And voting third party is basically the same as doing nothing.
Why ask me? Go ask Minnesota.
And how does non-participation in any way fix the system?
You absolutely can participate in the broken system to prevent the greater evil AND at the same time do your utmost to change and fix it, in order to create better choices.
Not participating means you can try your utmost to change the system, in order to create better choices. But in the meantime you throw vulnerable people under the bus of the greater evil for your protest. Congratulations.
“Non-participation” does not mean inaction, just in case it needs to be said.
You cannot fix the system. If the second time Trump got to power didn’t open your eyes, when are you going to call it? When they start undermining trust in elections? Pressure on officials to overturn results? Attacks on the press? Invoking crises to expand executive authority? Politicization of law enforcement? Purging civil servants not loyal to the ruling party? Undermining courts or ignoring judicial rulings? Scapegoating minority groups?
We’ve seen this script before, yet you still think it’s best to play along.
The vulnerable have been exploited for greed and profit for decades now by the billionaires. That noose has never stopped tightening, and you’re trying to argue that we may inadvertently scald them when we burn the rope that’s strangling them.
I think this American is well aware how broken the system is and doesn’t support it. They’re just trying their best to work with the situation they are given.
Careful, people who have never met you will now tell you that you’re not actually a progressive, but a dirty liberal
This. And if one of the lesser progressive or AIPAC funded candidates get the nomination, I will speak out against their problematic policy positions and try to get them to move away from these views right up until election day (at which time I will go into the voting booth, hold my nose, suppress my gag reflex, and vote for whoever the D choice is (who will always be better than the R choice, at least at the state and national level).
If you vote Democrat just because they were better than Conservatives, congratulations, it means you were duped by the establishment or don’t understand how your election system works and the inevitable binary outcome that comes with always doing the same shit over and over again and believing something will somehow change eventually.
There are literal fascists in office, in part because Dunning-Kruger told you not voting or voting for a no-chance candidate was a good idea.
Or maybe you think posting online is “action” or “protest”. In case you haven’t noticed, it does jack shit.
I thankfully don’t live in US and have been financially protesting USA since the 2nd time Trump was elected. I also don’t need your help in learning what protesting means as I have breathed in enough tear gas to learn that lesson myself.
Sure, go vote Democrat. I am sure its their turn to rule anyways so that the capitalis war between the monarchs and the oligarchs can balance itself once again. I am sure they will take care of Trump (or whoever their next chosen prophet is) THIS TIME. They were so helpful last time they were elected doing jack shit for 4 fucking years. Then losing to a fascist clown just after 1 term. You live in this fantasy that these incompetent rich bastards will somehow save you, and it won’t be the same shit all over again in another 4 years.
Keep showing Democrats that no matter how disconnected they are from the American public, you will keep voting for them. Why? Because, it is the most important election in the history of America. As if you weren’t saying the same shit for however many years now, and as if you won’t say the same shit in the future. It will never be time to vote for 3rd parties. God forbid some people have other beliefs then “left of far right” party and want to show their support for candidates who represent themselves better. God forbid you might send them a message and ask for meaningful change by actually showing them that you do not support them.
Keep showing Democrats that no matter how disconnected they are from the American public, you will keep voting for them.
The US has a two-party system. Period. That will not change anytime soon, if ever. And that presents unique challenges that countries with different systems do not have.
I’m not entirely sure from your rebuttal that you actually understand this fact.
I don’t disagree that things are fucked up, and I don’t disagree that the Dems are a bad party which by and large do not support their constituents. But let me be clear: there is no path outside of voting Democrat that has any chance of success of changing anything in the US. The only path forward is voting for the single opposition party.
What you’re saying is: it won’t matter anyway. Maybe you’re right. I’m also not disagreeing there. But we know from evidence that there is no other option which has any chance. And if the whole house of cards falls – as it is likely to do – I’d certainly rather tell my children that I did what I could based on an evidential position, regardless of how futile it may have ended up being.
What I won’t do is pretend that a third party vote will help. I won’t pretend that not voting will help. Those are the farcical ideas of a naïve idealist.
Its such an American response to be like “you guys don’t understand our system” thinking you are so special. I have lived in a multi party system that had the same party winning for 26 years. My fascist dictator was ruling over me way before Trump even knew what politics was. And you know what? We have the exact same arguments about wasting votes if you do not vote for the main opposition party.
I am not saying it does not matter. I am saying that you (and people like you) can’t keep doing the same thing and expect shit to change, and then put down people who are actually trying something different for once. You can’t keep supporting the status quo and then act all high and mighty because other people are actually sick of watching rich bureaucrats fight over who gets the bigger slice of the pie.
So what’s the plan? Are you hoping the Democrats will win every single election until the end of time? Talk about being naive.
I am saying that you (and people like you) can’t keep doing the same thing and expect shit to change, and then put down people who are actually trying something different for once.
Not voting or voting third party is not new. It’s not “for once”. It has been tried again and again in the US, and again and again, the outcomes were as expected: whichever candidate between the two main parties loses more votes to the tactic, loses the election.
Stop pretending it’s novel. It isn’t, and it always fails. There is nothing virtuous about being shown evidence and denying it. That’s called stupidity.
Oh its not new? Tell me, when was the last time that enough of you voted independent /3rd party to win the elections? Oh, it never happened? An independent winning seems like a new thing to me then, for once. “Oh but it’s not realistic for independents to win, there will be never enough people voting for them”, well then how the fuck do you expect them to win if you do not vote for them, because no one will vote for them. Do you not see this infinite loop that only seem to work out for Democrats and Republicans? Do you not see how they both want to keep things this way and therefore will never change anything meaningful?
You also seem to forget that a 3rd party DID BEAT a US major party before, coming 2nd place. Maybe not good enough for a win, but apparently its possible to beat a major party, when enough people vote for you. Funny how that works out.
You guys keep calling people traitors for voting differently than you, you keep putting not voting and voting for independents in the same bucket. You keep calling people naive and idealist, you keep belittling people’s convictions pretending to be a progressive. You say its not realistic to vote outside of Democrats (or Republicans) while ignoring the fact that our reality fucking us all anyways. Go keep being complicit in the system that allowed all this to happen if that’s whats going to keep your conscience clean. Or maybe you are just happy as long as the republicans don’t win, but then just accept the fact that you are just trying to do the bidding of your democrat daddies instead of pretending to not be happy with them either. I guarantee you will have more success trying to convince people.
In 2000, Nader won 1.64% of the popular vote in Florida.
If less than 1% of the Nader voters had voted for Gore instead, Gore would have won Florida, become president, and who knows what timeline we’d be living in today.
If your favorite candidate is polling in single digits ahead of election day, maybe… just maybe… you should consider which of the actually viable candidates you want to win and vote accordingly.
Democrats haven’t held an unbiased presidential primary since 2008, but go off. Superdelegates will save us.
Based on the timing of this post, I’d assume they’re talking about the midterms for offices like Senator, Representative, County Commissioners, Sheriff, etc, which to my knowledge don’t use superdelegates, but I’d be interested to learn if I’m wrong.
I vote in every damn primary fuck you
I’m registered as a Democrat to vote in their primaries even though I hate the DNC.
We keep being told that we’re not voting in the primaries.
I don’t quite believe it. I’m starting to think the primaries are rigged. And this is their excuse – they get to smugly tell us we’re just not showing up to primaries in enough numbers to make a difference. Conveniently puts the blame on us, trying to make us blame ourselves.
The last 2 primaries were a disgrace. You can find a bunch of vocal progressives who didn’t vote or voted 3rd part, but the bigger problem has been the establishment completely ignoring trying to get democrats to get off the couch and vote and instead try to court sycophantic far right voters with weird anti-trans rhetoric or pushing class warfare under the guise of deregulation and “small government”.
Two?! This goes back to Kucinich not getting airtime when he would’ve been a viable opponent against Clinton!
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lol what primaries? As I recall last time we were simply handed Kamala, and everyone I know voted for her despite that. But If Biden had stepped away earlier as he originally claimed to intend to, we would have had time for a real primary. And I would have voted in it.
There’s an upcoming midterm election. The Democratic primaries are just getting started for it, in fact the primaries for Texas, North Carolina and Arkansas are starting tomorrow.
Other important Democratic primaries, according to a quick Googling:
- March 17: Illinois (competitive Senate primary to succeed retiring Sen. Dick Durbin)
- May 19: Georgia (Senate primary to challenge incumbent Sen. Jon Ossoff) and Kentucky
- June 2: California (crowded, top-two primary for governor)
- June 9: Maine (competitive Senate primary to take on Sen. Susan Collins)
- August 4: Michigan (open Senate and Governor races)
- August 11: Minnesota (Senate primary) and Wisconsin (Governor primary)
So maybe let’s get to it. When the election itself comes around you’ll have the usual two-party choice of D or R, which isn’t really much of a choice. Hold your nose and vote D in that one regardless of anything else, it’s the lesser evil. The primaries are where you can express your political desires more freely without handing a win to the Republicans by picking the less-than-optimal choice.
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Water your tree of liberty, then.
Don’t you guys have a second amendment for that?
Guess my head’s just been in the sand because I’m not in any of those states. Yes, where there are primaries, let’s get to it indeed.
There are primaries everywhere, those were just some of the more prominent ones. Go look up when the ones in your own state are.
Damn right I didn’t vote in the last primary!
… because I was fucking homeless!
Can’t vote without a permanent mail receiving residence!
My sources say you can in all 50 states by listing a park, shelter, or other place where you spend time as your residence and shelter, church, etc as your mailing address. You should be able to go to a polling location and get a ballot even if you don’t receive one in the mail.
Just saying that I think there are options for you next time if you find yourself in the same situation. You are not without some power.
Your sources are broadly wrong.
Before I became homeless… I worked at a nonprofit, assisting the homeless.
Irony aside, no, a park wouldn’t work at all, and most shelters actually don’t let their ‘residents’ use it as an address, support or recieve mail for them.
Of those that do, they all nearly all have the barest of minimum effort put in to making sure residents receive their mail in a timely fashion, and its fairly common for them to lose your mail, bar you from obtaining it for arbitrary and petty reasons, if not just outright stealing it.
And spare me your ‘you have options’ speech.
I did the math, I ran the data, that was my job, I did it better than the government does it.
The PIT is bullshit, multiply that number by about 4, at least, to get an accurate count.
I distinctly remember my horror upon realizing that covid had utterly broken our seasonal trends, entirely. Just straight up needs being unmet.
Which leads into: The shelters were all completely full back in '22.
When cops go and clear a settlement and say they offered access to resources?
What that means is they gave people a phone number, to people who often don’t have phones, a number that may or may not still be in service, where if you go through a 30 to 60 minute phone interview, you’ll discover that “oh well we can’t offer you any help at this time, have you tried this other number?”
… and that was all before Trump slashed roughly 80% of SNAP, Section 8, and grant funding to non-profits serving the homeless, before the Grants Pass decision functionally made being homeless a crime, before the tariffs, before CECOT, ICE invasions, and before ICE/FEMA began building 23 concentration camps, in line with Trump’s stated policy, from before he got elected to round 2, to round of the homeless into concentration camps.
In summary, fuck off.
I have PTSD now, thaks for triggering it with yet more useless and wrong advice, you have bo idea how bad things are.
… and I couldn’t get to ballot place if I wanted to, because I was crippled, couldn’t get a ballot if I managed to get to a polling place, because my ids were all stolen, along with everything but the clothes on my back.
I had to bullshit my way from seedy motel to shelter to seedy motel for 2.5 years before I managed to get an actual, current, proper drivers liscense.
… and I’m the guy who used to design the data systems used to manage helping people do things like that, at scale.
DNC primaries are nothing more than a livestock auction for donors. Libs will cry a big game about FPTP election systems and our need to overturn CU, but will ignore any of those major systemic contradictions when it happens to affirm their worldview
Imagine if they made the excuses for voters who pretend FPTP doesn’t exist, that they make for politicians who pretend FPTP doesn’t exist.
Acknowledging the failures of the democratic system is by definition an acknowledgement of the lack of agency in voters
You can’t both acknowledge FPTP and deny it as voter disenfranchisement - they are one in the same.
you know, like our last primary.
Well… shit… can’t argue with that
Imma head out
What a fucking joke
Because the DNC will sue to keep them off the ballot and win, and when constituents sue the DNC for not keeping their promises and the DNC will argue they are are a private entity or something (I forgot the exact argument), and under no obligation to keep their promises, and win. 🤷♀️
What fucking primaries? 🤦♀️
If they put up Gavin Newsom I’m staying home. Additionally I will encourage anyone I know to do the same. I haven’t stayed home for a primary since I’ve been able the vote.
I refuse to vote for another centrist Democrat and I’m tired of acting like the only option is to choose the lesser of two evils.
Do you know what a primary is?
I do. When was there a leftist option?
America is a conservative country, being mad that there are no perfect leftists to vote for is childish. Damage control and pushing the needle away from the right is our only pragmatic option. Anything else is just wishful thinking. The world sucks and there is no quick fix, bitching about that and doing nothing will, unsurprisingly, accomplish nothing. Be realistic, not dogmatic.
America is whatever the population chooses it to be. I’m not looking for a perfect leftist option. I’ve been voting for the most left candidate since I’ve been able to vote (primaries, general, midterms, local, school board).
I believe in the electoral/civic process but, if the ratchet has tightened so far to the right then I don’t want to keep voting for the center. My position of abstaining from the process, and encouraging others to do the same, is my way of pushing the needle left.
Not touching nor interacting with the needle enables it only to go farther right.
I get it, shit sucks, and everything is broken, but that is just a fucking stupid and masturbatory response to the situation. It’s very self centered and myopic, I’m sorry, man, but you’re not a hero, nobody is, and that is a shit excuse to do nothing while patting yourself on the back like it was something.
Not directed at you just a general statement. If you don’t vote then you’ve quite literally not done anything, and you didn’t do nothing for the sake of others, you did nothing to fulfill your own ego, stop bragging about it.
I respect that, I just disagree. I think my line of reasoning is sound. I’m not pushing people out of political engagement I’m simply saying not to vote for a centrist candidate.
Also, someone would have to understand my comment politically in order to be swayed by my rhetoric. If I’m advocating for left candidates and pointing out why I’m not voting for centrists I think that’s a winning strategy.
As long as we agree on two things, I think this conversation has reached its conclusion : 1. That my strategy is to only vote left or stay home. 2. Your strategy is to always vote for the most left leaning candidate even if the party keeps moving right.
If that’s not your position let me know.
It’s not just about voting. We need more people RUNNING!
Regardless of your opinion on AOC, this documentary about how she got elected lays out the steps. IMO it’s how AOC got elected that is the key to fixing America. Americans need to make that happen every single election. Systematic problems need more than 1 presidential term to reverse after all.
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Independent local grassroots electoral movement. Dedicated to getting/organizing volunteers, signature gathering, door knocking, everything from getting candidates on the ballot to winning in the election.
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Candidate nominations. AOC didn’t sign up, her BIL or someone nominated her and the Grassroots Movement approached her to run.
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PRIMARIES. PRIMARIES. PRIMARIES. Target establishment DNCs who clearly have more in common with corporate lobbyists than their own constituents.
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Run the numbers game. Only 1/4 of their candidates won. Democrats should face a primary EVERY SINGLE ELECTION.
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Independents can’t vote in primaries in my state and many others.
Independents are the majority, 40% of voters, with Rs and Ds at 30% each.
That shouldn’t be legal
That should absolutely be legal. Just imagine that a ton of Republicans vote in democratic primaries to mess up the democratic candidate.
I disagree.
One person, one vote… if a person decides they’d rather vote in D than R primary, there’s nothing wrong with that? What’s the “mess up”?
Rs vote for Ds all of the time, Ds vote for Rs, I vote third party, D, and R, depending on the election.
Locked in a party, there’s no reason to vote for anything. Just count the registrants, boom, whoever has the most registrations win.
We should be able to vote how we wish when we wish. This law is WORTHLESS.
It’s by state: https://ballotpedia.org/Primary_election_types_by_state
I think semi-closed the way it is implemented in MA is the best. You can request a primary ballot for either party but not both, regardless of what your voter registration says.
What (presidential) primaries? I haven’t had a presidential primary with more than one option since Obama 1, and I was slightly too young to vote. So maybe actually have fucking primaries?
EDIT: yes I vote in all the other primaries I can.
Did you not vote for Bernie against Hillary?
Since the primaries are held at different times in different states, lots of people don’t have an option by the time the presidential primary gets to their state since it’s essentially over and all the other candidates have dropped out.
Oh shit, I forgot about that because I was abroad when I voted. Okay, my mistake, they’ve given me one single primary in my adult life.
Your vote for a third party without ranked choice voting is a waste of your vote
A vote for someone against RCV is even worse than wasting it.
My district is +13 democrat.
So as someone who actually understands the hideous monstrosity we call the electorial college, I’ll vote for whoever I like.
3-4% on an exit poll is more of a change than my vote would have anywhere else.
