From a perspective of how hard it is to subdue

Edit: sorry for info-dumping guys. Constitutions are my special imrerest and I wanted to hear other people’s thoughts.

  • SubArcticTundra@lemmy.mlOP
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    5 days ago

    Czechia: IMO pretty durable

    • Two chambers – House and Senate
    • one is proportional, one is majoritarian => different compositions
    • Senate has staggered terms, takes 6 years to replace
    • Need 60% in both for constitutional changes

    Here comes the clever part:

    Abolishing democracy would requite breaking a Catch-22. All you need to govern is a majority in the lower house. Hence populist leaders only fight to gain majorities in the House. The Senate is powerless when it comes to everyday government (it can be overruled) and only has teeth when it comes to blocking changes to the constitution. Most emotionally driven voters find the Senate pointless and hence do not go to vote in its elections. The only people who go to vote in Senate elections are those who understand its importance as a constitutional break. So the chamber self-filters an electorate that finds democracy important.

  • Pamasich@kbin.earth
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    Switzerland here.

    Constitutional amendments are very common and easy here, but they need to go through the people and require a double majority (majority of the people + majority of the states). So the government can’t just abolish democracy, to use the example from your comment, without convincing regular people to agree to it.

    As for the danger of the head of government ignoring the constitution like what Trump is doing in the US, that would be a lot harder here due to our “head of state/government” being a collective of seven people from four parties. So if any of them wants to ignore the constitution, they have to get the others to agree.

    • SubArcticTundra@lemmy.mlOP
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      4 days ago

      A presidential council is an interesting idea which I know they fascinatingly also a lot of communist countries had

  • SubArcticTundra@lemmy.mlOP
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    UK:

    • No constitution, no hard checks and balances
    • A law introducing slavery could be passed with a simple majority vote
    • No guarantee of stability, a new govt can repeal any of the previous govt’s laws

    You’d think this would be playing with fire but the fact that it has managed to last this long makes you question a lot of the assumptions that people usually use to justify entrenched, codified constitutions.

    It would seem that checks in the UK system do exist, but just weren’t explicitly designed and aren’t written into law anywhere:

    • The population has lived in relative freedom for so long that anyone trying to abolish democracy would face immense pushback. Compare this to post communist democracies like Serbia where people are used to authoritarian rule and comply in advance.
    • A prime minister may have a majority on paper, but British political parties are fractious and rebels often appear even in the PM’s own party
    • The legislative process seems to contain a lot of friction as is, even theoretically OK laws have problems passing for a myriad of reasons
    • Whereas in other countries long-term policies would be entrenched in constitutions, in the UK MPs have to think of more creative ways to make them difficult to repeal (usually connecting repealing them with some large political or logistical cost).
    • Apepollo11@lemmy.world
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      It’s probably worth mentioning that this doesn’t just stop at legislation. A lot of things in the UK are the way they are, just because that’s the way they’ve always been.

      What’s the official flag of the UK? It doesn’t have one. The Union Jack was a naval flag that became our defacto national flag. Before WW1, people could have lived their entire life without seeing a Union Jack.

      What’s the official national anthem of the UK? It doesn’t have one. God save the King / Queen is our defacto national anthem. It was a song that gained popularity and people adopted it unofficially.

      OK then. What’s the official language of the UK? You probably guessed - it doesn’t have one. English is only the defacto language of the UK. In fact, the only official language anywhere in the UK is Welsh, in Wales (obviously), where the vast majority of people speak English as their first language anyway.

    • litchralee@sh.itjust.works
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      No constitution, no hard checks and balances

      I’m an American, but IIRC, the UK does have an unwritten constitution, one that incorporates all the landmark legislation over a millennium. That is to say, rather than a dedicated, singular document that “constitutes” the boundary of the law, the British look to their still-active laws to ascertain what core rights and responsibilities must exist, and extrapolate from there. If this sounds wishy-washy, it’s remarkably no different to how the USA Constitution is interpreted, under the “living document” doctrine. That doctrine in American law simultaneous recognizes that: 1) the exact text of the constitutional provisions must be adhered to (this is a basic tenant of “rule of law”, and 2) those provisions may extend to analogous situations. Right-wing conservatives over here attempt to ignore the second, adopting the so-called doctrine of “textualism” (which would only recognize strictly the first aspect) but this “doctrine” only seems to be cited out when it’s convenient, and hand-waved away when it’s not. Hardly a doctrinal approach.

      As an example of what is universally understood as being part of the British constitution, see the Magna Carta. Many of its provisions might no longer be part of the formal British body of law, but were translated into formal statute law, with its lineage acknowledged when it comes up in civil rights litigation. The current status makes the Magna Carta more akin to the US Declaration of Independence, which formally grants or recognizes zero rights but is still important in American constitutional jurisprudence. In that sense, the Declaration of Independence is a part of the supplementary body of the American constitution.

      As for checks and balances, since the UK adopts the notion of parliamentary supremacy – and still does, even after the creation of the UK Supreme Court in the 21st Century – the checks exist within the Westminster parliamentary system. As currently formulated, the UK Parliament is composed of a lower and upper house, with the former seating representatives of the people and the latter seating representatives of … nobility? The church? I’ll just say that the House of Lords represents the “establishment”. Not like “deep state capital-E Establishment” but just the institutions at-large. In that sense, the check-and-balance is one where the populist will is anchored by institutional momentum.

      Is this alright? Personally – and again, I’m an American, not a UK citizen – it does seem rather backwards that the PM can advise the Monarch to create and appoint more hereditary peers in the House of Lords, which could stack parliament against the interest of the citizenry. I think the existence of bicameral legislative bodies to be an anachronism, especially in the USA where both end up being population-based (because prior court rulings ruled that land-based representation was unconstitutional, except the US Senate). The Nebraska unicameral legislature shows what can be done when the law-making process (committees, 1st reading, 2nd reading, floor vote, etc…) is consolidated, where testimony doesn’t have to be taken twice and citizens need only voice public comment at one committee.

      But I digress.

      No guarantee of stability, a new govt can repeal any of the previous govt’s laws

      Yes, and no. The UK has a very rich tradition of inking out their party platforms, to the point that when a new government and party are in power, it’s not at all a surprise what laws they will change. Indeed, it would have been obvious for months to years, since the minority party forms the “shadow government”, which is basically a demo to the citizens about what the government would look like if they were in power. Note to fellow Americans: “shadow” in this case does not mean nefarious, but rather that each designated person from the minority will “shadow” the actual minister (eg Dept for Transport) and thus go on TV to give interviews about how the minority party would have done things differently. If a journalist needs to fill airtime with multiple points-of-view, going to the shadow minister on that topic is a quick way to get an opposing perspective.

      The only question then, in terms of stability, is which party prevails after an election. In this sense, while there may not be absolute continuity, there is still practical continuity: businesses and individuals can make plans in advance when they learn what’s in the platform of the minority party, can start actioning those plans if the party has a likelihood of winning an election, can brace for change if a close election is called, and ultimately be ready for when the new party takes power and implements their changes. It’s a pragmatic approach: change is the only constant, so might as well give sufficient notice when things do change. I would offer Brexit as an example of managed chaos, since the lead-up to the election made it very clear that the UK might indeed fall out of the European Union. And indeed, they did, but only after 4-ish years of uncertainty and negotiations, which while extraordinarily tumultuous for the country, did not somehow devolve into wholesale governmental collapse or the sudden breakdown of civic life. So even in a near-worst case scenario that changed the very fabric of the UK’s legal situation, it’s still holding on. Not too shabby.

      As for repealing “any” prior law, technically yes. But the institutional inertia is partially what blunts this power. Public advocacy organizations are – to this American – seemingly more transparent in their operations, and astroturfing is less an issue because of open-transparency when it comes to forming a legal company at Companies House. Likewise, the interests of businesses, the Church of England, the universities, workers unions, etc all find representation somewhere. So it’s much harder than, say in the USA, to ignore whole segments of the population to make sweeping changes.

  • SubArcticTundra@lemmy.mlOP
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    US:

    • Very very high threshold for amendment
    • 2-party system

    Honestly I think that if you removed these two hurdles, the rest of the problems would sort themselves out. IMO a very strong point of the US constitution is the strong federalism that it has, making it hard for someone to centralize all power in the country, however hard they might be trying right now.

    The one other main weak point I can think of is:

    • Politicised judicial nominations
    • AA5B@lemmy.world
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      I still believe it’s a pretty good system that has generally held up well for a couple hundred years.

      It’s in tatters right now as all three branches are being run by power hungry sociopaths. Yet The people who run those branches at lower levels are still trying to do their jobs. There are still checks and balances. There is still hope our partly capsized ship will right itself. Authoritarianism required collusion across the heads of all three branches, yet each branch is still partly functioning

      • SubArcticTundra@lemmy.mlOP
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        4 days ago

        Yes, I have a feeling your democracy will ultimately prevail, purely by virtue of how used the general population is to freedom

    • birdwing
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      On the other hand, Trump’s been busy trying to rule by decree. Being able to do that at all is an issue.

  • SubArcticTundra@lemmy.mlOP
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    Hungary:

    • Non-proportional parliament (easy to get a single party majority)
    • Single chamber
    • President appointed by said chamber, not by popular vote as in some other countries

    As you can see, the Hungarian system has a single point of failure – the majority in parliament. It is then no surprise that when Viktor Orban’s party won the 2010 election, where was practically no stopping them going on from there

    Compare that to Slovakia:

    • Also single chamber parliament
    • Proportional system
    • President elected in elections

    Slovakia has just as shitty politicians as Hungary does but the fact that power in Parliament is distributed across a coalition plus the fact that their president is elected completely independently to that means that it is much harder for any single party to rule alone, unchecked.

  • SubArcticTundra@lemmy.mlOP
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    Italy:

    Government needs confidence of both chambers at once (Perfect Bicameralism)

    Wtf how do you guys manage to have any kind of stable government?

    • birdwing
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      As I understand it from there, it’s the government that works, but the PMs that can get dismissed often. Unfortunately, the right-wing populists like to stay over time.

  • Looks cool…

    problematic when you look deeper at the possible shenanigans that could arise out of it…

    feels like a 1st grader scribble when you look at real world practices… unserious af… only works half of the time… nobody really care about it… or alternatively its a highschool where the teacher walked out of the classroom for a bit… absolute chaos… only for them to intermittently step back in and tell the kids to stop fighting, then walks out and it starts fighting again…

    (USA… ahem Electoral College ahem Winner Take All)


    My Former Country

    People’s Republic of China…

    yea this thing is a joke…

    CCP entrenched into the constitution

    Constitution does not exist in practice. “Freedom of Speech” written in there but you got a whole ass firewall lmfao