- cross-posted to:
- neoliberal@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- neoliberal@lemmy.world
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There’s an extent to which the whole “Leopards ate my face” thing is an expression of our worst impulses. Schadenfreude feels great, but man this post makes me feel terrible for Argentina. Especially after having seen The Take. (It’s been a while since I watched it, but it left an impression.)
I think people are feeling like this because the awful people that enable and drag the rest of society into these messes, never learn. Sure once shit hits the fan and it affects them deeply they’ll be complaining and calling for heads to roll, but the second the rest of society fixes the messes they created, the second they get a comfortable life again, they return with the same attitudes that lead down the dark path to begin with. They just don’t learn. Only changing their views when it affects them personally and then immediately flipping back when life is good again.
oh i think that people do learn, everybody learns, it’s just that some people are more like experimental physicists. let me explain:
In physics, there are mostly two branches: theoretical physics (which makes predictions and does mathematical calculations on paper) and experimental physics (which touches things with their hands, does experiments and observes the outcome). the same is true in politics:
Some people see a situation, think about it, do some guesswork and write articles, discuss with friends what would probably be the outcome if a certain policy is implemented, then decide whether it’s a good idea to implement that policy or not. Other people, however, take the opposite approach: implement the policy first, then wait and watch what happens. That’s the experimental approach: do things and figure out the hard way. That’s exactly what happens in politics. people vote for austerity politics, and for a while it goes well, until suddenly it doesn’t anymore. then people crash and society suffers, and people observe this and then conclude that these policies did in fact not work well. that’s when they learn. after harm has been done, and they’ve experienced it themselves.
That’s a nice sounding line of bullshit.
What actually happens is rich Conservatives, in the Edmond Burke mold, use some grievance, real or imaginary, to worm their way into power.
Once in power they start doing two main things, the first is to rob the government blind, transferring wealth from public good programs to themselves via things like defense contracts or sueing the government you control for billions of dollars.
The second thing they do is implement some sort of restrictive law or policy that is designed to hurt one group of people more than everyone else, dividing people from each other and amplifying the hatred of the worst assholes around.
Eventually the conservative is ousted, usually after crashing the economy. But usually enough conservatives remain in power to stymie any actual reforms that would actually fix all the problems that they caused.
And no, people never fucking learn.
If only we had decades and decades and decades of this “research” already done in the form of countless hopelessly failed “experiments”… Oh wait. We do.
Sorry, but no. You don’t get excused because you ignored everyone who told you that THIS SHIT HAS BEEN TRIED AND IT DOESN’T WORK.
You don’t get to ruin people’s lives simply because you’re incapable of learning something without doing it yourself.
I had to remind myself about Milei’s policies… I mean I know he’s a hapless* Trump copycat** but I was thin on the details:
Milei advocates minimal government, focusing on administering justice and ensuring security, with a philosophy rooted in life, liberty, and property, and free market principles. He criticizes socialism and communism, advocating economic liberalization and restructuring of government ministries. He opposes Argentina’s Central Bank and current taxation policies.
Economically, Milei is influenced by the Austrian school, and admires former President Carlos Menem’s policies.There we are. Austerity, the favorite cover-up for “just doing my rich donor buddies bidding”. And unfortunately I don’t even need to look up the Austrian school. And it ties back nicely to the movie you mention.
* Some time ago when the economy was already tanking he sang live in a rock band. The article was titled “Burning Down The House”
** TBF Trump did not invent Trumpism, he’s just the most prominent
PS & BTW
Donkey (and horse) meat is a relatively common ingredient in e.g. Salami. Yes the economy is fucked up but people eating donkey meat is probably not the best indicator. And as someone else pointed out, the article talks about selling donkey meat in large cities, not the eating per se.
The Argentinians were desperate for change. I wouldn’t have voted for him but the peronists were a complete failure over the last 10 years or so too.
Libertarianism fails faster than communism. It has been well documented and people still think it’s a better system of government
Literally forcing people to eat ass to own the libs.
Hahaha
This is of course extremely biased meme. The reality is that so far Milei achieved a lot of what he planned for. The main issue in Argentina was huge inflation and out of control public spending. Both ruling parties were unable to address this for years so people got fed up and elected Milei as a kind of protest leader (“politicians can’t help us so fuck it, let the whole thing just collapse”). Just how tired of constant economic crisis running for decades everyone was is another story.
So Milei won and did what the previous governments didn’t want to do: cut spending. He got inflation under control by sacrificing big chunks of society. Old people got screwed, poor people got screwed but so far his plan of “short time suffering to achieve long term stability” seems to be working. Inflation is down, poverty is down, foreign investment and trade looks good. The question is no longer if Milei’s reforms will collapse the economy or not (they didn’t) but if the reforms will work long term or if the improvements will be short lived and not worth all the suffering it caused.
Like most people here I hoped that Milei’s politics will explode in his face and we’ll have a clear proof that the ideas sold by right wing populists are bullshit but it didn’t happen. The jury is still out on Argentina but anyway, each country is different and even if it will work there long term it doesn’t mean guys with crazy hair are good for the economy (as we can see globally now).
Old people and poor people got screwed, but poverty is down? How does that work? And if it’s going well, what’s this about donkey meat? That’s a sign of underlying food price inflation. Not all of that can be traced back to global factors.
If enough poor people die, I suppose the poverty rate will go down.
I’m not an economist so I don’t know the details but I know he froze pensions when the inflation was still high so pensioners in practice saw lower pensions. He also cut funding to food banks so people relying on them got hit. Inflation affects everyone in the country so I imagine when it went down salaries caught up with prices for a lot of people taking them above poverty levels. Donkey meat is only a sing of red meat prices going up which may just mean that a lot of meat is being exported which brings money to the country. I’m not saying that’s what happening, just that it’s possible to see lower pensions and donkey meat while people are being lifted out of poverty.
I love how you just quickly glazed over the part about closing food banks.
Nothing says helping the poor like taking away their only source of food!
From the very begging I’m saying that Milei cut spending by sacrificing the poor and that his plan was short term sacrifice for long term stability. Did you miss that? Yes, he scarified the poor. I’m not glazing over this, I’m saying what he did.
Old people and poor people got screwed, but poverty is down? How does that work?
Can’t have poverty if your poor die.
tbis.
It’s unfortunate that it’s always the poor and the elderly, the rich rarely get thrown under the bus…alas they’re always welcome in some other shit country, like the US, so they have a way out, the poor, not so much.
As an amateur economist I do feel like he made a lot of right decisions though he’s clearly corrupt. Dunno if this will work out in the long run as corruption will outweigh the gains of right economic decisions.
Absolutely. Everyone was expecting the corruption but I think most people didn’t expect any of the right decisions. No one knows what will happen long term but so far things went surprisingly well. Or course all the suffering he caused is terrible but at least for now there’s something to show for it.
Did anyone expect the rockabilly?
Most people criticizing Milei have no concept of what 300% inflation looks like. That means prices are going up about 25% every month. There central bank had a 133% peak interest rate, compared to the 3.5-3.75% rate in the US that Trump desperately wants cut.
Argentina was staring down hyperinflation like Zimbabwe or Weimar Germany. Bad things were coming either way.
I’ve been there when inflation was still around 100%. Stores looked full but when you started browsing it was all full of couple local products. No imports so no choice. Shrinkflation was also terrible. Candy bars were the size of single square of chocolate. To pay for a couple of days in a hotel you had to carry stack of bills that didn’t even fit in the wallet. Paying with card was not an option because the government established some fake exchange rates that made everything 2x more expensive as when paying with cash. You could tell everyone was resigned and only expecting things to get worse.
He got inflation under control by sacrificing big chunks of society.
So by sacrificing large chunks of the people he’s supposed to serve?
I wonder if the rich elites are in that pool.Oh he absolutely does not have inflation under control, and his approval rating is plummeting as it gets more obvious that his fire-selling the economy of Argentina is a band aid on a gunshot wound: https://finance.yahoo.com/economy/articles/milei-approval-falls-argentina-inflation-181705477.html
What data are you looking at?
(I said it’s down, not “under control”)
You literally said under control bro
Do you think 32.6% inflation isn’t high?
I think 3-4% is usually considered healthy for growth. They’re at 10x that.
I think it’s lower than 300%. Isn’t it?
32% isn’t even close to “under control” my dude
Read the previous comments. Check who said it’s “under control”. Reply to that person.
You literally did:
So Milei won and did what the previous governments didn’t want to do: cut spending. He got inflation under control by sacrificing big chunks of society.
That’s a direct quote from you.
They don’t care about prosperity on the general population. They only care about the prosperity of the richest.
Chile is still our model country. Some people say that’s bad, because of the poverty. I don’t give a shit about the common people, only those who have the yachts.
- Zsolt Bayer, Fidesz pundit, (hopefully) future unemployed person
Love how people keep choosing right wing policies.
Propaganda is a powerful drug
And the cheating, there is so much cheating.
Unfortunately this isn’t a left or right thing…as the last decades of leadership there have been socialist left wing.
Corruption is corruption, and Argentina is filled with it.
Cool story bro
2001 meme, time to update your catch phrases, bra
and twice? sad
also, there’s no story… not even an appropriate meme. do better
Insightful critique, thank you.
It was the previous left wing governments that ruined the country economically and who are responsible for the crazy inflation and corruption, but ok
That isn’t true (unless you just arbitrarily zoom into a point in time that fits your narrative - and refuse to see the bigger picture esp. wrt USA). And more importantly, it is not a counter-argument to what the other commenter said.
Cool story bro.
Argentinians making the sacrifice to prove what most of us knew already.
Anarcho capitalism is fucking stupid.It’s also not Anarcho, that word is thrown in there as a marketing term. Like using “fresh” to describe donkey meat.
What Argentina had before was pretty bad as well.
Big “and then the bears came” energy.
just bought this book can’t wait till i get to that part
Isn’t Argentina a major producer of beef? Are they exporting most of it instead of selling it domestically because exporting brings in more money?
there’s a meat monopoly, few companies decide where most of the production goes
Ah so the Irish potato famine, Indian famine caused by the East India company, or Holodomor sort of thing where it is better economically for the eliet to let the locals starve and sell all the food abroad type of thing I see.
Yes, ripe for revolt
What about that shitload of money his buddy trump gave him? Wasn’t that 40 billion?
He is a Catholic, converted to Judaism, and fully Zionist. Most likely he funnel that money back to trump through deals with Israel.
you are using the word billion incorrectly, a billion is a million million, and it was 20 thousand millons, not 40.
In English, “billion” means " a thousand million". “un billón” in Spanish is “a trillion” in English
That’s the British usage of the word. Possibly elsewhere, but when the US uses that word we refer to 1000 × a million. Still entirely uncertain as to how that linguistic difference came about.
Literally no English squeaking country uses the British long scale anymore. It was nonsensical and problematic. The US short scale has been adopted as the English standard in every country on earth for the purpose of English measurement.
So if a country even if their native language is not English. When using English for official reasons uses the short scale. It’s only when using non English languages does the old long scale get used. Which is mostly a relic of British imperialism.
Even then a number of countries have started using us short scale even in their native language.
Us short scale is simpler and more understandable. It’s the same reason countries use metric. It makes more sense.
The Brits use short scale nowadays like every English speaking country.
In Canada we see US billion sometimes. It gets confusing.
For which use case? Is the billion = a million million standard, or is the thousand million standard?
Also how did we end up with two standards of such a basic numerical name?
Edit: their original comment read “Non-English Anglosphere,” hence my first question not making much sense any more.
English->English
French->American
Due to US market size, theirs is becoming more standard.
Like metric, the US swapped to the French version because of their hate of the British following the split.
Ok, see I knew French and Latin used the 1000 of the previous magnitude word is the next magnitude word, I wasn’t sure if that was standard or not. Seems that it is the Brits who changed things.
Possibly because Americans were so keen to call themselves billionaires they lowered the requirement.
Similar to how they pronounce “Aluminium” the same as “Platinum” to make it sound like a precious metal.
This isn’t a criticism. If I’m being kind the real reason is that less separation between “million” and “billion” is functionally more useful, as well as aspirational.
We spell that word aluminum, not aluminium. That’s why we pronounce it that way. Why we spell it differently? No clue.
Also it’s not just a billion. A trillion is a thousand billion on this side of the pond, and has been since well before any Americans were even close to being billionaires. We just use a smaller standard for counting, but that’s also the standard French and Latin used, so I don’t think it has anything to do with us.
Funfact the British USE to say that word the way Americans do now. Then changed later. Americans way of say aluminum is actually the original and accurate way that the British invented.
Why y’all changed is beyond me. We are using it the way YOU wanted us to originally.
Same with the word soccer. The Brits invented it, and then changed their minds and now go around telling people its football, not soccer. Motherfuckers, this is your fault!
In part it was because it was named out of standard through a misunderstanding but then it wasn’t corrected…
You spell it differently so that you can pronounce it differently, as I say, to make it sound like a rare and valuable metal.
It is pure marketing.
Aluminium used to be hard to obtain. It was a rare metal and then some smart bastard worked out how to extract it using electrolysis and it became as common as dirt.
Some people had invested heavily in it as a precious metal and overnight their investment was worthless, so hence the reluctance to rebrand.
Ok, I can see that. There are a couple of State Capitol Buildings whose domes are covered in Aluminum Leaf, which would now be called aluminum foil, and I have square yards of the stuff in my kitchen and garage. At the time they were built aluminum was still difficult to get, less than two decades after they were built electrolysis guy did his thing, lol.
I knew that at one point King Louis the somethingth or other, had a full set of aluminumware to serve extremely important guests with. Like, not just cutlery. Plates, saucers, bowls, cups and goblets. The less distinguished guests had to eat and drink out of platinum, gold, or (gasp) silver.
I didn’t know that about King Louis (n) … That’s a great fact!
Nobody thinks aluminum is a rare and valuable metal.
In the mid-1800s aluminium was more expensive than gold.
It’s ten thousand lakh actually, or a hundred crore.
Quit throwing these fake Star Trek currencies around!
Less than $900 per person.
I think it was a line of credit and it they already paid off this debt.
I think an article in Swedish news ran about chicken becoming more popular in Argentina following the extended economic hardship under Miles.
To be honest, this is maybe the only silver lining of an otherwise fully shit Milei regime. They eat way too much beef in Argentina - they are the country that eats the most beef per capita by a large margin.
I’m confused, are you saying people running out of food is a good thing if it’s more environmental?
No, I’m saying that Argentinians adopting chicken as a staple in their diets to replace their beef consumption is a good thing for the environment. I don’t wish any economic hardship on any of them.
the world is not black and white. bad things can have positive consequences and vice versa
People looked at genocide in Gaza and would say: that good we don’t see anyone fat. This must be good for them.
Thats fucked up, yo. Like, being vegetarian is super fuckin’ easy.
Not that my family will ever understand what being a vegetarian means. (“So, what, you don’t eat any meat? At all? . . . What . . What if you go to McDonald’s? I mean - heh -what are ya gonna order?!? Haha.” x 30 years)
any meat? at all? what about fish?
I don’t know why so many people think fish is vegetarian, but as someone who doesn’t eat any seafood it is one of my biggest pet peeves. It sneaks its way into fucking everything. Caesar salads, kimchi, most Thai food, bahn mis, you name it
I generally avoid Asian restaurants that don’t specifically advertise as vegan or Buddhist because I’ve received authentic food that was definitely riddled with fish sauce or some form of shrimp even though the staff reassured me it was ‘veggie safe’.
I don’t blame them, a lot of the food is preprepared and I’m the 1 in 100 weirdo that is asking for their most popular dish with all the delicious stuff removed.
I once got an order of pad Thai (no fish sauce, no meat, no egg) that was just oily noodles and cilantro. They even left off the peanuts, probably to be on the safe side allergy wise. I have that soap gene so the cilantro was nearly overpowering.
If I hadn’t been on a date I would have just paid the bill and given the leftovers to the crazy woman that sings to pigeons down the street.
I’m not even vegetarian, seafood is one of the only things I don’t eat, but I’ve learned I can’t even trust “vegetarian” options at Asian places. I’m super cautious around Italian food as well. Unfortunately they’re among my partner’s favorite cuisines so we end up at them often
I’m not a fan of seaweed either, which is often the vegetarian option. It tastes like low tide to me.
Caesar salads and kimchi has always been made with a little seafood though. The anchovies is what makes it a Caesar dressing, and lots of kimchi recipes have those tiny shrimps or at the very least some type of shrimp paste in them, and are heavily seasoned with fish sauce.
Fish sauce is a huge staple of Asian cuisines in general, so this stuff you’re complaining about ‘sneaking in’ has always been there. You sound like a crazy person to me, complaining about these foods having seafood in them.
I typically avoid those foods because I know they have fish sauce, but it’s not always obvious and restaurants tend to forget/mislabel/misrepresent them. It’s also worth noting that they can be made without fish, and fish-less versions are common (ie: kimchi).
To give a different example, I ordered stuffed mushrooms at a diner once after asking the waitress what was in it. She said it was mainly bread crumbs and cheese. Surprise surprise, it was crab.
Ah yeah, I get your point now. That is annoying. Restaurants should know exactly what they’re serving people and be up front about it.
You sound like a crazy person to me
Yeah i get that a lot. Just trying to not eat animals, that’s all.
Beans and rice? (“Sure! Lots of pork fat in there!”)
Uh, vegetable soup? (“Absolutely! With ‘healthy’ beef stock!”)
Glass of water? (“Coming up! Infused with delicious bacon!”)
I don’t know why so many people think fish is vegetarian
It isn’t. But it’s relatively common to be vegetarian + fish. And historically fish didn’t really count as meat which is why Christians were allowed to eat it during pre-Easter “fasting”.
I’m sorry you’re being served fish and other water animals as “vegetarian”, that’s fucked up.
vegetarian + fish
no it is not, vegetarian+fish is oxymoron. vegetarian means you don’t eat meat. not eating pork and beef does not make you vegetarian.
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But it’s relatively common to be vegetarian + fish.
“pescatarian”. Not vegetarian.
I personally am a practicing carnivore, I accept and understand those who aren’t, and yet I have no fucking clue why some think fish is “better” meat. I think it must be some christian holdover, scraping for moral superiority.
Nothing but meat at all? You must have to eat a bunch of organs eh. Gotta keep them vitamins up.
i am not nutrition specialist, but i think fish is generally considered healthier than pork or beef.
on the moral part, i think it may have to do something with fish not talking. everyone can imagine pig or cow crying in desperation when being murdered, while fish is just silent, it is easier to convince yourself “it doesn’t feel anything in its little brain anyway”.
Can’t say I’ve ever had that problem, but I didn’t t eat those foods you listed even before going vegetarian
Do you know about fish sauce? It’s the only thing that makes most SE Asian food difficult to verify as vegetarian.
Well, I don’t eat any SE Asian food 🤷
Fair enough. You’re missing out. Good stuff. 😄
*sigh* yes, i get that too. Still. After 30 years.
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In the midst of the escalation of prices, the proposal arose to market donkey meat, sold for about 7,500 pesos per kilo. Butcher Gonzalo Moreira, from Buenos Aires, described the effects of the crisis on the sector. “We are facing a major recession. I don’t know a merchant who isn’t going through difficulties. The sector is under a lot of pressure, even without major price variations. Everything is paid by card, pushed forward,” he told Radio 750.
It is industrial production and sale of donkey meat pushed by flesh merchants in cities like Buenos Aires, not poor rural smallholders eating their own donkeys for survival.
Your interpretation of this is ignorant and frankly kind of racist. You think most Argentinians are destitute subsistence farmers plowing their fields with donkeys? Get a grip.
Also I 1000% promise you that vegetables are significantly cheaper to obtain than fucking donkey meat. This is just butchers trying to stay in business. Making lame, ignorant excuses for industrial animal agriculture is gross.
Wait, you think farmers in Argentina are using donkeys to plow their fields instead of tractors?
Congratulations, you just posted the dumbest comment on the site this week
And this is after the bailout.
Maybe his dogs gave him bad financial advice
https://time.com/6337474/javier-milei-argentina-president-cloned-dogs-advice/
Here in the states, we will soon be eating Rats-a-Roni, pigeon parmigiana, and weeds for fiber.
This is not far off, how many of us look at steak and ground beef and think “I’ll pass on that.” It’s going to get worse.
