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As an atheist, I don’t go around bashing on others’ beliefs - as long as they’re respectful to others and don’t use their beliefs to police others.
A grandma on her deathbed, trying to find comfort in her faith? Hell, I will sit with her and confirm that she’s indeed about to see her dead husband and spend eternity with him. Because at that point, being kind is more important than being right or debating theology.
But, the moment you try to use your beliefs to dictate how others live (beyond basic morality, going beyond the golden rule), out comes the “fuck off with your imaginary sky daddy” argument. You are free to live your life by any doctrine you want, as long as it doesn’t affect others negatively. You don’t want to eat meat? Sure, go for it. You don’t want to eat pork/beef/seafood? It’s your body, your choice. You don’t want to get an abortion or transition to a different gender or be in a gay relationship? Again, it’s up to you. But the very second you try to tell others to live by your rules, you can fuck right off, and then fuck off some more just for good measure.
And it’s not like I’m not open to debate. I guess at the end I’m more agnostic rather than atheist, in this aspect. I welcome theological debate. I’ll gladly argue about it for hours as long as you’re respectful. I’ve got a bunch of theist friends - Christians, Muslims, Hindu, a variety of pagan/wiccan witches, and so on - with whom we do sit down on occasion with a drink or a joint and debate various aspects of belief, religion (organised or personal), their effects and influences on society and vice versa. It can be a brilliant topic of discussion as long as everyone respects the others and listens to their side. After all, every single person has their own point of view formed by their upbringing, their life experiences, and so on, and these are equally important regardless if you agree with them or not. But it’s equally important to understand that these debates aren’t meant to convert anyone. They are there to convey a part of you you find important, so others can better understand you. Understanding why one turned away from, or turned to religion, and how that helped them as a person.
To summarise: religion is like a penis. It’s okay to have one, it’s okay to not have one. It’s even okay to be proud of (not) having one. Hell, it’s even okay to think yours is better than others’. What’s not okay is pulling it out in public and trying to force it down others’ throats, or try to legislate in the form of a dick measuring contest.
I agree that this is the best approach to it. Live and let live.
I’m an atheist as well, and I definitely went through that stereotypical antagonistic phase when I was much younger, and now I cringe about it. I’ve softened on religion a lot since then and no longer view it as a human failing that has only caused harm. I respect that others may have reached a different conclusion than me, and I recognize that religion has served as a vehicle for culture that has driven much of the societal progress and values that we take for granted today.
I was very antagonistic because I grew up an atheist in a conservative ultracatholic hell. Now I live in a chill place that used to also be conservative ultracatholic hell. I got to meet religious people that didn’t sincerely believe that I deserve to be tortured forever for not believing in what they do, who aren’t bigots, who believe in abortions, who hate rapist priests. When people aren’t mad at you all the time, it’s so much more peaceful to reciprocate.
It’s easy to fall into antitheism when the only religious people around you are structurally supporting evil, it’s hard when you see that people can actually have a positive relationship with their religion and community, even if they are incorrect about some metaphysical truth.
Don’t feel cringey about personal growth, that’s a badge of honor
You don’t want to eat meat? Sure, go for it.
But the very second you try to tell others to live by your rules, you can fuck right off,
I agree with you, it’s cruel to force others to live by your dietary rules. I’m personally vegan, and I’m completely fine with meat eaters as long as they don’t force their dietary choices onto other people or animals.
Right? It’s maddening to see that meat eaters can not see this incredibly obvious contradiction in their otherwise commendable live and let live mentality.
And also like a penis, keep it away from children. It sickens me how much religion preys on children to indoctrinate them before they have the critical thinking skills to see through the grift.
I guess at the end I’m more agnostic rather than atheist, in this aspect.
I don’t like how agnostic and atheist have been used. Atheist means a lack of belief in a god. Anti-theist is the active belief there isn’t one. Agnostic is someone who knows that they cannot know if there’s a god. Agnostic atheist is someone who knows they can’t know if there’s a god and lacks the belief in one.
Agnostic is not the same claim as atheist or theist. It is a claim on the ability to know something, not on the beliefs that person holds. A gnostic atheist is the same as an Anti-theist. They think they can know there isn’t a god. The inverse for a gnostic theist. You can also be an agnostic theist, who doesn’t think it can be known, but they still believe.
Okay then let me rephrase my beliefs:
- I do not believe in any deity et al
- I do not dismiss the potential for a higher being to exist
- I will not believe in such an entity until undismissable, scientifically verifiable, direct proof is given
Yeah, that’s agnostic atheist.
Sent you a DM, hmu :)
As an atheist, I never bring up my beliefs unless asked. My religious friends and relatives on social media spout their shit non-stop. If I did 1/10th of that they’d be up in arms.
This post just seems like a straw man to try and keep atheists invisible.
This post just seems like a straw man to
try and keep atheists invisible.farm engagement.It doubles up on religious debate, and hating on Reddit.
Annoying militant atheists are definitely rarer than annoying militant christians, but they do exist. Especially on reddit. One of the reasons I enjoy lemmy is that those people are rarer.
Fun side fact: I knew one of my two best friends for over a decade before finding out they were christian. They had been wearing the same cross necklace under their shirt that whole time. We just never talked about it because it didn’t come up and they aren’t preachy.
Correct, plus if it’s reddit it’s possibly a bot created specifically to make that straw man real. Christians in particular have a persecution fetish, after all.
Eh I mean I was there 15 years ago when /r/atheism was a default subreddit (when default subreddits were a thing, nowadays I believe that’s no longer the case). Some of the commenters/posters seemed like they’d be genuinely exhausting people in real life. Not a majority by any means, otherwise I would’ve unsubscribed fairly quickly.
They found Russian agents working through social media to widen rifts in the US electorate, specifically on the vaccine debate. They had agents playing both sides: pro-vax and anti-vax.
Who knows how many entities are doing this right now? On which topics? On which social networks?
So, yes, fake atheists being assholes, but also fake Christians being assholes. You are always being manipulated. There is never a time you are not being manipulated.
You are not immune to propaganda
I am not immune to propaganda
We are not immune to propaganda! ☭
☭
gold
Well then isn’t it refreshing that a real human stole that reddit bot post who stole it from a human on twitter and gave it to us here on Lemmy, restoring it back to human-to-human sharing.
Don’t worry. I got you covered. I whine about religion all the time and make sure to mention I’m an atheist. As you said, they’re constantly pushing their thing down other people’s throats. If they can’t handle the comments, they should keep it to themselves. The same way they want gay people to keep it to themselves.
yeah this is the part that slays me. “vocal atheists are so annoying”
asshole, how many times have atheists knocked on your door?
how many atheists did you encounter on your way to your pap smear at planned parenthood?
fucking hypocrites, child rapists and child rape accomplices.
religious people are way worse, who cares
Absolutely, You can be actively in the process of dying and they will be bible thumping your chest.
I don’t go door to door telling people they should be atheist but at least once a year someone knocks on my door to talk to me about Christ.
Some of them actually believe that if they can get you to say the magic words, you’ll go to heaven instead of hell.
If I thought I could prevent someone from eternal pain and suffering, and instead have them go to a place where the creator of everything, including… uh… hell…
OK, never mind.
Isn’t jesus torturing you forever too?
multiple protestants have theological holes in their boats
hell is not eternal suffering its just the state of nonexistence as you will be in hell as you were without God aka nonexistent, God made you.
And you cant have torture and suffering without life, so you cant have eternal torture and suffering if you do not have eternal life, and if you have eternal life, you aint going to hell.
Tell them they can stop, go home, and enjoy time with the fam. I found Christ, and I stopped the problem.
Ok, take it out on them
Idk i think atheism is just as presumptuous and asinine as theism.
Atheists don’t tend to fall down the nationalism - fascism hole quite as frequently, but they can be just as annoying.
I just don’t know what’s wrong with admitting we don’t know. We can’t perceive everything and there is still too much mystery for me to subscribe to anything. That being said, I do not use the promise of an afterlife to live well, I justify that by making happiness my goal, I just can’t say definitively there is nothing going on beyond what we know, spiritually speaking. I don’t think any religion has gotten it right because how could they if we can’t perceive everything?
The vast majority of atheists are agnostic atheists, and “we don’t know” is that in a nutshell. Gnostic atheists who “know” there is no god are rather rare but very loud.
gnostic or agnostic, atheists are just not convinced. Like I dont believe you, that you have a unicorn at home. If I am gnostic or agnostic about that matter isnt really too important to anyone.
Gnostic atheists aren’t just not convinced, gnostic means “to know”, e.g. certainty. Agnostic atheism is “I’m not convinced, therefore I don’t believe in god.” and gnostic atheism is “I believe there is no god.” They would usually phrase it “I know”, but let’s be real it’s a belief.
Personally I find the distinction important, because gnostic atheists are annoying. This is why I usually label myself simply agnostic when asked.
Yes, you yould make the argument that it is impossible to know that there is no god, as the existence of a god is unfalsifiable. But if your definition of agnostic is this strict, then noone is really an agnostic atheist, because you cannot know that there isnt a very quiet and passive god which doesnt intervene on earth after Jesus. Its just not falsifiable. So if someone examines all arguments by scholars and the most avid theists for a god and comes to the conclusion that they are all bad/not good enough, then I’d argue that this person is a gnostic atheist. Because what else is one supposed to take to become gnostic? You cannot make scientific experiments to prove that there is no god.
You cannot make scientific experiments to prove that there is no god.
And I can appreciate that this is frustrating for a lot of people, but it is simply unknowable.
Because what else is one supposed to take to become gnostic?
The default position is “I don’t know”. It’s OK to sit there, you don’t have to have the answer. If you want to get to “I know and here’s the answer”, you either need to prove it or make a leap of belief.
Gnostic and agnostic are not opposites!
Edit: they certainly look like they’re opposites, but just like deontology and ontology aren’t opposites, these two words are just awkwardly related. See e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism which is not just “believing in a god”. I’d say a proper antonym for atheism is theism/deism.
“I know” and “I don’t know” aren’t opposites?
They are of course, but that’s not the meaning I attach to those words.
respectfully, your edit made it even more clear that you are misunderstanding the context and meaning of the terms in this case. agnostic / gnostic atheism needent necessarily have anything to do with gnosticism as a general term.
True enough, but even still I don’t see that “gnostic atheism” is obviously the opposite of “agnostic atheism”. In any case it’s not what I claimed. The terminology is confusing and I was hoping to be helpful, although I see now I was far too glib.
Offtopic: What in gods name is that wiki? https://hmolpedia.com/page/Main_Page I understand almost every word but dont get the combination of them at all. Am I crazy?
right, one type of atheism and another type of atheism arent “opposites” and no one said they were.
the prefix in question and how it functions in this case are indeed opposites. one is a position of certainty about the topic, and one is a position of a lack of that certainty.
True enough, but even still I don’t see that “gnostic atheism” is obviously the opposite of “agnostic atheism”.
They aren’t, but that wasn’t the claim. Here’s what you said:
Gnostic and agnostic are not opposites!
The article you linked explains how they’re opposites. Gnostic and agnostic are opposites, just like theism and atheism are opposites.
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in this context, i think they are. aka certainty / uncertainty
I take your point. For the record if you do claim that gnosticism and atheism are indeed opposites, them isn’t “gnostic atheism” an oxymoron?
no no … its like this … within the context of atheism the prefixes gnostic and agnostic refer to the following term “atheism”.
atheist refers to belief gnostic / agnostic refers to certainty
no one claimed anything about gnosticism at all, let alone that its the opposite of atheism. thats doubly wrong. also, iirc you are the one who introduced opposites into this conversation. i do agree the whole situation is semantically confusing. :)
Oh, I see. “Gnostic” has more than one meaning. It can mean “A believer in Gnosticism”, but it can also mean “Of, relating to, or possessing intellectual or spiritual knowledge.” I’m using the American Heritage Dictionary, but you can find similar definitions in other dictionaries.
In this case, I’m sure that most people can figure out that a gnostic atheist isn’t an atheist who believes in Gnosticism.
Totally right. Worse again though, there is a lesser known term “gnostic atheist”, but it doesn’t quite mean “a spiritual believer in the absence of a god”, nor any other straightforward guess.
I figured this was the case. The loud ones tend to set the stage, unfortunately. I’d personally just consider myself to be fully agnostic, but I’m sure I share a significant base of beliefs with most agnostic atheists.
because to consider yourself a “gnostic atheist” you need to do some amount of research, consider the arguments for a god (or the regionally modt believed in god(s)) and then come to the conclusion that all of the arguments are not convincing. You can still be unconvinced after an honest examination of course and consider yourself an agnostic. But from my experience most agnostics are just indifferent to the whole question about gods, so they naturally dont have a strong opinion about it and dont voice it.
Finding arguments unconvincing would still be definitionally agnostic. To be a gnostic atheist, you have to posit an argument that no deity/whatever could exist, not just that’s it’s exceedingly unlikely.
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i had misread this part here “To be a gnostic atheist” and attempted to politely correct what i misread as “agnostic atheist” my bad. good comment!
I say there isn’t a god the same way I say the sun will rise tomorrow and the universe won’t blink out of existence. In truth, nothing is certain or absolutely knowable; there’s always the unknown unknowns and axioms which are untestable. But I have no reason to believe that lawn gnomes come alive when they’re not being watched; just because I can’t be absolutely certain to exactly 100% certainty doesn’t mean I also can’t confidently state that claim’s full of shit.
Right? There is some hubris is this absolute certainty without room for doubt. Thats just not scientific to me, either.
if enough people started saying so, would you think theres a chance that shoelaces are sentient even though theres no evidence to support that and all reasonable evidence supports the opposite conclusion? ofc not, so why should i entertain the idea of gods. hmu when you have some evidence.
You are walking, talking evidence of militant atheists being asinine.
I will not be elaborating.
thats not kind
I don’t know you and I have no obligation to be kind to strangers. You’ll live, I’m sure.
just dropping an ad hominem and peacing is a poor way to engage in my opinion. be well.
I’ll give that, I shouldn’t have called you asinine. I will rephrase.
Your behaviour is asinine – and not making me any less annoyed at militant atheists.
I see more insufferable atheists than insufferable religious people on Lemmy at least.
on lemmy
Yeah duh… Its a space made by and largely populated by computer nerds
Oh intelligent and educated people have less stupid beliefs without evidence to back them up on average? Huh.
Oh, and I’m supposed to respect magical thinking of ignorantscand cowards as if it were equal to science? Huh.
Try going outside anywhere in the US
That’s because here, we’re winning.
Probably just selection bias. Which group of annoying people you run into more often is just a reflection of the spaces you hang out (through choice or otherwise)
Exactly, which is (sorta) my point. If this thread (and most atheist-dominated online threads I’ve seen) is any indication, atheists think they’re per capita less insufferable than their least favorite brand of religious people when they just express their insufferability indifferently.
Just because someone uses Linux doesn’t make them an atheist
Okay I’m an atheist and I use Linux but
go vegan for a triple
templeos
if only
Religious people and vegans are exactly the same. They both claim absolute nonsense to be undeniable truth and are smug about everything they can’t prove.
The fuck? This comment is so out of left field holy shit 🤣
Looks like you took a play out of your own book when you lumped vegans in there.
Prove me wrong. The loud ones are making themselves the representatives of the cult and exactly like any other cult, constantly proselytizing like street preachers. The pushiness poisons the movement, even if it wasn’t full of shit. Live your little life of self denial but shut the fuck up about it.
What would it take to prove you wrong? Now I’m just curious.
You can’t at this point. Keep yelling at the wall if you enjoy it though.
They both claim absolute nonsense to be undeniable truth and are smug about everything they can’t prove
They’re yelling at a wall? My friend, nobody here is talking about vegans but you lol
vegans are right tho
they say a lot of things. not all of it is right.
“Animals feel pain and causing pain without having to is bad”
NONSENSE!!11!!
Onmivores gotta omnom.
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Not to mention the environment…
if you say “religious” you have no valuable opinion on Christianity
only people i’ve seen torment the dying at their beside is the christians.
always the same spiel… repent while you can, save your soul from eternal damnation. if you don’t repent you’ll spend all eternity in fire and torture, etc etc etc.
Let’s be honest: Going “(Your) God isn’t real” when someone tells you a “God bless you” is straight disrespectful. It’s their way of wishing you good things.
I have an helenist friend whom I’d reply “Let’s hope for it” if they said “hope the Gods are with us on this”. Am I a Helenist? No.
I tell my dad a “You too!” when he says “may God protect you on your way!”. Am I a Christian? Nope!
But is this their way of wishing someone a good day/good luck? Yes. The intention is what counts, after all.
Yea this totally happens in real life. Deeeeefinitely not a strawman you made up to feel better about yourself.
Sir, this is a shitpost community
Sir, this is a shitpost
which is in a shitpost community
This post is like a litmus test for separating pretentious reddit atheists from people who can actually take a joke, bravo
I just love so much that some atheist(s) on reddit upset the fucking god botherers so much that this has become a drum they beat weekly after decades.
sure bud, try to brand it as ‘oh those mean / inconsiderate atheists’ - sure thing child rapists, sure.
edit: oh no someone upset the child rapists, gee whiz
I mean, I’m an atheist myself but the type of person they’re memeing here definitely does exist. Pretty much only confined to Reddit though. In my experience there are far more cringe theists in most other online spaces.
it’s also funny to me how many responses these threads get saying
“well I’m an atheist but…”
like, ok, good for you. And hey, I genuinely believe almost 3-5 % of these responses lol
Believe it or not, the majority of atheists don’t enjoy being annoying as fuck
yup. we never knock on people’s doors trying to convert them.
We don’t even threaten them with eternal torment if they don’t!
yeah we’re leaving all kinds of tools on the table. the cult of atheism is never gonna build itself this way lol
You think I’m lying about being an atheist? Pretty sure that would be against some rule in the bible lmao.
lying or just trying to be a pick-me, I don’t care, I’m not your psychologist. There’s always people like you who show up and castigate their ‘fellow atheists’ for being annoying, but ignore the enormous harm - and huge annoyances the god botherers inflict upon society writ large.
so sure, maybe you’re being truthful, I don’t give a fuck, it’s still silly.
I don’t know how you read my first comment and thought I was ignoring the damage theists do. I very explicitly stated that there are more cringe theists than atheists.
I don’t care pickme, I don’t believe you. “I’m an atheist but…” I don’t need allies like this. Go shit someplace else.
You are being very aggressive lol. I’m not being a pickme, I couldn’t give less fucks what religious people think of me. I actively dislike religious people, and agree with you that religion is the root of a good amount of the evil in the world.
All I said was that annoying atheists do exist (I know, I was one of them).
If you won’t allow allies to lightly push back on your ideas then you’ll find yourself without many allies.
Have a great day anyway man.
I hate organized religion with a passion. You bet your ass I was “catholic” when my grandfather passed and I was helping my grandmother with the funeral though. Im an atheist, not an asshole. I’m sure if their imaginary friend actually exists they can forgive me for pretending to believe to console my grieving grandmother
All I know is i’ve never had an athiest knock on my door too damned early on a Saturday morning to tell desperatly try to get me to believe in their particular lack of belief.
In either case, she’s not going to be disappointed
A real reddit atheist would never be this well dressed. Still, it’s a great pic!
It’s from adam ruins everything https://www.themoviedb.org/tv/64537-adam-ruins-everything
It’s very on brand for this post. Literally the energy he was going for.
I know. I’m just being a dumbass.
I feel like Reddit atheists are far too commonly given the spotlight, and intentionally so by theocratic fascists.
There are countless genuinely terrible things about organized religion and its role and influence in society. This conversation absolutely needs to be had. Nobody serious is going to grieving or dying people to shit on their coping skills using religion.
Well, the US certainly needs to have a discussion about organized Christianity. That’s the only religion I ever see getting up in my business.
Fact: More Americans have been killed in the name of Christ than Allah.
This is Adam Conover slander.
Also, “Um, Actually” is a different College Humor/Dropout show.
Um, actually, Adam Connover has appeared on Um, Actually multiple times
There’s little kindness in breaking the grand comforting delusion of a dying delusional mind.
Just let them go in peace, to do otherwise would be needlessly cruel.
Or, maybe they deserve that cruelty: I don’t have every relationship between every theist and atheist.
Just be aware that it is cruelty.
Some may deserve that, some may not.
Or you could just not be there.
That’s all between you and… well, you.
Now that that’s done and dusted, may we return to discussing the affairs of the living?
The cruelties repeatedly and incessantly enacted upon some category of them, by one particular group or another, because they don’t share some particular principle or value in the way they live their lives?
The cruelties that are themselves mandatory ritual elements of those particular group’s worldviews?
Yeah… as much as I hate my so-called mother, I think it would be needlessly cruel to do that to her… have enough empathy/sympathy to not do it.
Specially because I believe, while there might not be a beyond, there might be a “something” where consciousness is stuck in its last moments… and I wouldn’t want even her to be stuck with the dread of dying, or the hopelessness of being hated in the deathbed, but hopefully her brain creating the image of “heaven”… a better place where she is happy, and not the unhappy bad person she ended up being…
There is a fair amount of evidence that the brain indeed does produce a very powerful hallucination in some people, as they pass.
Near death experiences… do often result in a kind of passage through or into a tunnel of blinding white experience.
Many people who do die in the sense of their heart stopping, but not permanent brain death, or very nearly die… many other kinds of vivid hallucinations of people in their lives or who knows what, or out of body experiences, etc…
While I don’t think there is a beyond, there do seem to be genuine, extremely vivid last moments.
No explicit need to turn those into … well I guess literally the worst trip of that person’s life.
I remain convinced that these end of life hallucinations are the best frame for thinking about heaven and hell, rather than quasi-material spaces like they’re often discussed.
As with the rest of our lives… a very vivid, somewhat standardized and agreed upon hallucination.
We are dreaming sacks of meat.
But that can be miraculous and amazing, if you let it be.
