❌️ “Violence is morally bad”
❌️ “Violence is morally good”
✅️ “Morality isn’t real and violence simply Is.”
Sad thing is that Ukraine wouldn’t have gotten nearly as much support if it looked like they had no chance of winning, or at least resisting.
I think the diplomatic logic is what’s the point in supporting a loser - your support doesn’t change anything and when they lose you’re on the winners shit list. If you support a winner then you may have a beneficial relationship in the future.
Ukraine never had a chance to win militarily, the plan was to strangle Russia by sanctions and it had the chance of succeeding, just the USA intelligence fucked up (not the first not last time, look: Iran) and did not noticed or underestimated Russia efforts to diversify its exports, and global south, mainly China and India, not wanting to be next ones on the US empire chopping block.
just gonna post the same comment I made last time this was posted:
the lemmyworlds and their orbiters are gonna be upset about this one
Can’t forget the sjw users
Violence is not the answer. Violence is the question. The answer is “Yes”
Ukraine was invaded, and Palestine was invaded so yeah both has the right to defend themselves
Why too simplistic:
Palestine got invaded, ethnically cleaned and massively murdered for decades.
Ukraine was cultural a divided country where West and Russia alike used one band or the other to rein power on the entire country. However in 2014 the West overstep the pro-West, pro-Russia alternation with a Coup. Immediately 1/3 of the country got itself completely disfranchised (no vote, no representation, no even could speak its language) and a civil war ensured and then even that 1/3 got without no pensions or services. The sad thing is that the coup was not even needed since Viktor Yanukovych was going to be voted out in just 11 months, but Washington was not having it and needed its coup to put the alternation to an end and be able to make its long-wished constitutional changes to Ukraine . The rest is history.
Russia is not saint here, not at all, but Russia did get invaded and massacred multiple times by the West and every single time through Ukraine… I think if Moscow have a bit if concern it is perfectly warranted. Ukraine should have done what Finland did in 1940s-2010s, side with the West but full warranties to Russia of being fully Neutral and away from NATO.
When Putin keep talking about how Ukraine is a artificial state and keep claiming that Ukrainians are just Russian by mentioning Kyivan Rus , I can’t accept his claim that he is invading Ukraine for security reasons. Kyivan Rus was built in the 9th centuries, the ancestors of modern Ukrainians were distinct, indigenous tribes who had already built thriving settlements and founded the city of Kyiv by the 5th century.
Not a Putin fan, but that speech is taken out of context. He was making the point their history is very interlinked, and that it is hard to argue (Northern Ireland is indeniable Ireland, but its history is very related to UK so a compromise was made to maintain peace, can you imagine if Catholics forbid Protestants to vote there?) . Funny enough, most of Ukraine land was acquired/given to Ukraine while it was under some sort of Moscow’s dominance. The original Ukraine was just a territorial fraction of what it is today. Ukraine should
Again, in the ideal world, Ukraine should have full autonomy to decide its future, but the Washington and Moscow alike did not like that. I am Ukrainian, would work for a neutrality formula. US does the same with Cuba and Venezuela and US has 0% chances of being invaded by Chine through any of those 2 countries.
What I do notice is the irrational hatred of thinking the other as sub-human… I saw that behavior far, far more in Ukrainians than I did with Russians (at least till 2024).
I watched the whole interview with Tucker , I i don’t think it is out to context . I see no other interpretation to saying a country or state is artificial same to how israel call the west bank as Judea and Samaria and claim that Palestinians do not exists to justify what they do
Removed by mod
You can identify the liberals in this thread because they dislike this, but can’t provide a single credible argument against it.
genuine, where do .mls find antipalestenians in lemmy? I have never seen a single one here outside of blatant trolls whenever someone posts a meme like this
There’s a lot of them, but mostly it’s the same troll users who only spit hasbara. Unfortunately they’re also mods on a few large news comms (cough lemmy.world) and feddit instances
Plenty of “pro-palestinians” around who condemn hamas and the rest of the resistance groups or call them terrorists etc.
Not a tanki but most people here reject Palestinian right to defend themselves or defend the Zionist ideology or bring neutral towards it
Where? Of all places, lemmy certainly doesn’t have folks defending zionists and even in western society at large you have public sentiment against Zionism (or at the very least, the west helping fund it)
Few days ago I debated one , now he is banned so his comment was removed but he was arguing that Zionism was not genocidal by nature despite citing herzl
https://lemmy.world/post/50712518/25318148
also this https://lemmy.world/post/8608689/5512066
Doesn’t really work like that. Russians are not less white than Ukrainians but their ultranationalist ideas are not nearly as supported in the West.
(Not saying Russian ultranationalism is better in any regard)
It does because whiteness is a social construct, Slavs were never considered white by anglos and germans ruling classes, they just get the temporary status when they lick the anglo/german boot and are used as cannon fodder against other Slavs.
I like how Russia itself is now pushing the agenda of being completely different from western countries while culturally being obvisously European. Soviet culture does differ a whole lot from Capitalist culture of the time, but apart from that Russia is not much different from, say, Italy if you compare the two with Japan.
Also it’s always made me laugh how the term “White” has nothing to do with actual whiteness. I remember being in shock when I learned Asians aren’t considered to be white. Like have you seen Japanese or Korean people? They are whiter than many Europeans.
Send both of them every tank in existence.
It gets messier when you remember that the current government of Ukraine is an ally of the Zionist entity and is providing air defense expertise to the perpetrators of the Gaza genocide, as well as participating in America’s aggression towards Iran. So while I understand the instinct, the unfortunate blunt reality is that these two sides are diametrically opposed.
Russia is also the ally of Israel
I’m not gonna get into this with a tankie
Make like June 4, 1989 and never happen
Make like June 4, 1989 and never happen
Nice strawman.
Lowkey it was funny though, haven’t heard that one before
It’s a bit too wordy imo to be an effective stand in for “fuck off” imo lacks flow and rhythm.
I’m sorry I can’t hear you over the Firewall.
Sorry I don’t speak insufferable Reddit dork you’ll have to translate it or fuck off.
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
Dork
Fuck off
Literally no one denies that June 4, 1989 happened. What we disagree on is what happened.
It’s that winning combination of perfectly ignorant and perfectly smug about it that makes you people so odious. Enjoy being on the Nazi side of World War 3 I suppose. Just don’t say you weren’t warned, because you’re being warned right now.
Blah blah blah
Free Tibet.
Already did
Always interesting how Tankies treat Tibet like how Americans treat Natives
We taught them how to read! That justifies it all! We went back on promises and treats and it’s their fault!! THEY DESERVED TO BE RE EDUCATED BY US
Do you ever read anything? Because you are obsessed with tankies and Hexbear to the point of being ridiculous and annoying.
All you come across as is pro-fascist and pro-slavery because Tibet suffered genuine slavery before CPC came in.
Just FYI, the Dalai Lama is a pedophile mentioned many times in the Epstein files.
The re-education: “So yeah, it was actually bad of the theocracy to enslave you in literal chains, rape, torture and mutilate you for fun. The poverty and abuse you experienced was not a divine punishment for your sins in past lives like the monks told you, it was inflicted on you by a class-based system of exploitation. You have value in this life comrade, not just the next. Here are some shoes.”
We went back on promises and treats and it’s their fault!!
Genuinely baffled by what you could even be talking about here. Are you just free-associating?
Anyway, it’s always interesting how dronies talk about feudal Tibet the way Confederate flag guys talk about the Antebellum South:
It was such a charming traditional society where everything was just better! There was harmony, and everyone got along and everything Just Worked. But then the big commie government came along and tyrannically enforced their woke shit about “rights for serfs” and “girls learning to read”. We treated our nantsam like family, they were happy as slaves!
You liberals get cooked every single time because you have no arguments.
Anarchists: “Let them fight.”
Nice crashout.
Do they have much of a choice while they’re being invaded?
Ukraine support for Israel preceed the invasion and Israel did nothing to help Ukraine in contrary voted against UN, resolution condrmning Russia aggression and have zero sanctions on it
Basically all of Europe and the US supported Israel in some fashion pre-invasion. Skip the middle man and invade Israel instead then.
It is wrong when Ukraine does it , it is bad when russia does it , it is bad when the usa does it , it is bad when the rest of europe does it, it is bad when china does not use it’s economical power to restrict israel . I do not advocate for attacking any middle man especially not Ukraine who is also experiencing a war of aggression on Ukraine
Does that matter to the people the UKR military kills in Iran and helps kill in Palestine?
But no, the Ukranian people have not had a choice in anything since having their government surgically replaced in 2014, or for that matter since having their government illegally dissolved in 1991.
My point with this specific post, as an olive branch to people who may not be familiar with the communist position, is not “Ukraine bad” so much as “This is what eventually happens to every American ‘ally’ no matter what promises have been made to the contrary, and other countries had best take notice”.
I don’t understand why tankies can’t make the logical step from “governments of the west don’t care about any peoples’ sovereignty (despite justifying their war efforts with claims that they do) because ultimately they just serve whatever keeps them in power” to “no governments care about any peoples’ sovereignty because ultimately they just serve whatever keeps them in power”
I actually did make that exact step as a teenage anarchist. Then I continued learning and realized this was an incorrect generalization, so I proceeded to update my understanding of the world in accordance with my dataset, something I have continued to do to this day and which has led me here. I followed a path of careful fact finding and reflection, and it turns out that political maturity is realizing the commies were correct.
If you learn enough, stay humble enough, and pay close enough attention, eventually that’s what happens. You realize that, generally speaking, the really high-octane commies have the most lucid understanding of the world out of any group out there, and the only reason this wasn’t always obvious to you was because you live under a capitalist power structure which aggressively indoctrinates its populace from birth into believing that communism is No No Bad Bad.
They have the most lucid and correct understanding of capitalism. They have the most lucid and correct understanding of imperialist extraction. They have the most lucid and correct understanding of western warmongering, global power dynamics, white supremacy, institutional racism and misogyny. That’s why they keep being proven right, about everything from US military actions to the fascism of the far right to the abusive nature of the so-called “moderate” liberal to the moral depravity of billionaires and the capitalist class.
there’s no group which perceives the abusive dynamics of this civilization with a greater degree of intellectual clarity as a whole.
…except for anarcho-communists who actually know what they’re talking about.
I don’t disagree with this as a whole–Marxists are pretty much dead on with most of their analysis and see the world a hell of a lot more clearly than people still indoctrinated by capitalism. The problem is that Marxists-Leninists don’t go far enough when they diagnose the problems with capitalist society. They think it’s enough that power structures are seized by the proletariat and set up to align with their interests, as they believe (based on their analysis of how societies work) this will inherently cause the power structures to wither away over time. But that’s not how power works. You can’t fully reduce it down to class conflict.
When a Marxist says “the history of societies is the history of class struggle”, imo there are two ways to read it: (a) Class and class struggle has made up the core of all societies’ structure and general existence for all history; or (b) There is nothing else to societies’ structure or general existence that is not reducible to class and class struggle
I agree with (a). It’s supported by history and evidence. (b) inherently can’t be because it presupposes itself.
From my own understanding of history, I think that a strictly ML understanding of how societies work misses a vitally important aspect of the role power plays. I could be wrong about that! But I’ve yet to see a ML explanation of why it’s necessarily wrong. And I think the reason for that it because ML theory presupposes itself. It wants to say (b). And in that sense, I think it’s actually a wildly un-humble framework: not only does it make the bold claim that all of history is just class, it forms the basis for governments that force this restrictive historical understanding on people and dismiss any other framework as liberal or reactionary.
As the article claims about MLs, there are plenty of anarchists who don’t know what they’re talking about–who have a really shallow understanding of power or are secretly just liberals. But anarcho-communism is thus far the only framework I’ve found that addresses all of the historical dynamics and structures identified by Marx and Marxists while still being humble enough to admit that it doesn’t necessarily hold all the right answers and that it’s not the only valid framework out there.
…except for anarcho-communists who actually know what they’re talking about.
That must be why anarcho-communism is the tendency that has spawned the most successful revolutions and uplifted all those hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. Oh, wait.
while still being humble enough to admit that it doesn’t necessarily hold all the right answers and that it’s not the only valid framework out there.
except for anarcho-communists who actually know what they’re talking about.
Because that’s a kindergarten understanding of socialist/ML theory and politics in general
deleted by creator
Can you think of any non context-dependent dynamics?
I don’t even know what you’re saying tbh. Context dependent dynamics? Power is bad and context is bad? Is that from some anarchist theory?
That’s a position I respect. Yep.
Yes American promises are why Russia invaded despite being signatories to a treaty guaranteeing Ukrainian sovereignty.
Why do you think Russia invaded?
Excuses are great, still breaks a treaty.
That sort of thing has a real cost in geopolitics.
Condescension aside, saying that in favor of the faction that kicked this off by breaking both Minsk Agreements is some crazy irony
Anyway why did Russia cross the border, according to you?
Oh this also applies when pointing out Ukrainian attacks on world food supplies!
They did what
https://quokk.au/comment/5587173
Russia is the world’s largest wheat exporter and most of those exports are shipped via its Black Sea ports like Novorossiysk. Russia’s main grain lobby group warned last month that Ukrainian drone attacks could shut down grain exports via the Black Sea in the near future, pushing up prices and causing hunger in Africa and the Middle East.
Ukraine is also a significant wheat exporter and invading it in a war of aggression didn’t really help with that tbh:
- https://www.csis.org/analysis/war-ukraine-and-global-food-security-impacts-four-years-later
- https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-024-01915-5
Remember the wheat shortage in Northern Africa that almost turned into a famine in 2022… yeah. Maybe we should blame the side that started the war more than the side that is defending against an aggressor, even if the latter uses some shady tactics, like targeting non-military targets. It’s not like the other side were above that.
It’s still disgusting to see people celebrating more shortage and supply issues.
Along with those who instantly insult you when pointing out maybe food supply methods shouldn’t be targeted in this day an age, especially when it’s not what’s feeding the country being fought.
But it’s bankrolling the addression. I guess Ukraine needs every target it can find in a world where Europe buys russian oil and gas for more eurodollars than what they use to support Ukraines effort.
But it’s bankrolling the addression. I guess Ukraine needs every target it can find in a world where Europe buys russian oil and gas for more eurodollars than what they use to support Ukraines effort.
All this is saying is that it’s fine for Ukraine to cause world food shortages and target anything in Russia including civilian infrastructure.
At the same time the world needs to cut off the United States but won’t do that either. Even though they won’t it doesn’t give others the justification to bomb food sources. Well unless they are Israel
Loving this low effort controversy bait! LOVING IT. LOOOOOOOVE IT. NOT.
it’s bait for the nazi sympathizers to reveal themselves so they can catch a ban
Removed by mod
Nazism is when anti nazism
NOT.
1992 called; they want their sarcasm back.
Removed by mod
Good job CIA agent, you might maybe take a high-interest loan for a run-down studio in 15 years at this rate.
I don’t get this joke, can you explain it?
