Social scientist, data scientist, cozy gamer, solarpunk, game dev.

Developing the game Cave Oasis at Shylake: https://store.steampowered.com/app/3689220/Cave_Oasis_at_Shylake/

  • 0 Posts
  • 10 Comments
Joined 1 year ago
cake
Cake day: March 2nd, 2025

help-circle
  • All really great points. They sparked one more thought. I really like overlapping authorities, so people have options. I think that’s important in a non-hierarchical/non-coercive society. At first, it seems easier to imagine overlapping investigative organizations, since different interested parties could request their own investigations and reports/evidence from each could be presented to a consensus-based decision-making body.

    So then I wondered, how would overlapping use-of-force groups work? Groups could have different methods, maybe some but not all rotate their force-using agents, have different rules of engagement, etc. But I’m also wary of the idea of multiple independent militias, since if groups can decide for themselves to use violence, that could descend into problematic vigilantism. I think there are ways to make it work more accountably, though. I remember that FA has multiple overlapping civil defense groups, but I forget the details of how they’re called to action, so the thoughts below might be exactly what’s already envisioned in the FA world (apologies if so!)

    I think the key issue is, if we want people to have different options, who has the choice? It can’t just be whoever has a complaint against someone else, of course. That part is important in determining whether some response is necessary, in a specific incident. But in general when we think about multiple options for authority in an anarchist society, I think what’s really important is that people agree to be subject to them. And with violence, I think that means that the potential target of the violence needs to be able to choose who can use force against them.

    Now, that wouldn’t work if a person can say in the moment, for any given act of violence, no I don’t agree to this person restraining me right now. But I wonder if we could have a system in which all community members are able to register their preferences ahead of time, pre-specify which civil defense group(s) or enforcement agency(ies) they consent to be handled by if needed.

    They can’t say no to all available groups (that’s the same as not registering any preference), and their wishes are most likely to be followed if they specify one or more large-enough, respected and responsive groups in their local area who can be called in when needed. If a person hasn’t specified any groups, then by default any group can be called in. Also groups might be called in to respond to an incident when at first the parties involved aren’t identified.

    If a person is then identified, and they have registered opposition to being policed/enforced by the group on scene (and their preferred group is also available), then (to maintain the group’s reputation) the on-scene responders would have an obligation to make every effort to remain physically disengaged from the non-consenting person as they can, perhaps just maintaining a perimeter and clearly warning the persons that they may have to engage if the person does not remain within the perimeter, until the person’s preferred response agents arrive on scene.

    The on-scene responders could still talk to the present parties, seek to de-escalate the situation without physical force, and might be able to gain a target’s consent to bring them in, if their preferred response group is delayed. Groups that don’t maintain enough registered community members voluntarily submitting to their enforcement practices could have their license to use force revoked (so they couldn’t respond even to the open calls for civil defense).

    Anyway, as I write this, I am thinking this might already be how the system works in FA. If so, I’m glad! Helps to think it through, to get on board with it :).


  • Hey, very interesting question. Carrie Vaughn’s Bannerless saga actually has a similar concept to Murder in the Tool Library. Also an anarchist community, a string of small towns made up of multi-family households that opt in to following certain rules in order to benefit from collective resource sharing. A key stipulation is that they respect the authority of an independent body of professional investigators, who can be called in to investigate a crime. The investigators arrive in pairs, they decide fault and consequences, and their judgement has to be followed, or face banishment.

    I like both authors’ works a lot, but I struggle with this level of punitive authority placed in only certain individuals within a society. I think AE Marling tries to decentralize that power more by having a whole network of investigators chiming in on a live-streamed case, the crowdsourcing aspect you mentioned. Still, I think both rely too much on another point you mentioned, the strict qualification process, and that’s a kind of “merit”-based power system that can be easily coopted and controlled by whoever is able to manipulate the selection process.

    Thinking about these models, two thoughts come to mind. First, I don’t think investigative (and judgement) authority needs to be (or should be) coupled with the authority to use force. Both sets of books do so, and it does seem convenient, if the people going out to investigate a potentially dangerous situation are allowed to be armed and are authorized to enforce the resulting punishments. But I think these things can be decoupled, and to some extent are in our society already. (Detectives are often cops, but prosecutors, judges, and juries are not.)

    Second, for roles that involve the authority to coercively affect others’ lives (through physical force or legally binding judgements), I’d really like to see those be temporary rotational assignments, not career professions. The city I grew up in is far from ideal, but its police force operates differently from most in the U.S. It has a consolidated Public Safety Department, combining police, fire, and emergency medical services. Officers are required to rotate every few years between those three services. So the cops were all recently fire fighters and/or EMTs, and that produces a relationship with and approach toward the local population. I think it also changes recruitment motivations too.

    I think it would be preferable for the people who can use force against others (e.g. restrain a person when necessary, take them into custody, escort them to some required treatment or community service, etc) only get to do that for a short term, say a year or two. Then they have to go back to being regular members of the community who don’t have the authority to exert force over others. Ideally they’re randomly selected from a pool of qualified volunteers (or from all community members who haven’t been exempt for various medical/physical reasons), like jury duty.

    Also, ideally those individuals also aren’t the ones who play a decisive role in investigating crimes or wrong-doing, determining fault or punishments. They’re the enforcers who accompany the detective, who are sent to collect and escort the individual after the multi-stakeholder mediation or consensus board determines the appropriate restorative justice measures, etc. And if some individuals need to play key roles in negotiating the decisions about fault and restitution, those could be rotational positions too.

    The enforcers would still have to exercise some discretion in when to restrain a person, how much force to use, so they’d still need to be well trained and held accountable for their actions. But I think avoiding combining too much authority over others’ lives, and making any such authority very temporary, could go a long way to reducing entrenched hierarchical power and abuses of it. Sorry for the long response, been puzzling over this. I’d be interested in how this relates to your thinking too!



  • Just want to add a couple more options to the good comments already made. Remember that you can also save money by putting at least some of it into a traditional savings account. Those are available at a variety of financial institutions, so you might be comfortable with a traditional or internet bank, or you might look for a credit union. Each will have different interest rates. Another option is government bonds, which are available at both the federal and local (municipal) level.

    I’m no expert so I’m not providing financial advice about whether to use any of these options, just noting they are also options that you might want to look into. I also don’t think it’s a bad idea to buy shares of ETFs. I agree with you and others that we have to be able to afford to live in the world that exists today, while also working to change it. All of these options have different levels of risk and return, so I think many people advocate for using multiple options just from a sound financial perspective.

    From a solarpunk lens, these options might or might not be better suited to your ethical/economic/social point of view. Banks might turn around and invest your deposits in the same equities that you might wish to avoid. Some also use the deposits to provide home, personal, and small business loans to local residents and groups. You might not want to lend your money to some governments today, but perhaps other local ones might feel more worth it. (Again, I’m no expert in municipal bonds and whether they’re a good idea to invest in, just noting they exist.)

    Using more than one means of savings could also make you feel less dependent on one over time, more comfortable shifting your resources if you need to, and less likely to become overly motivated in a social direction you don’t believe in due to your financial interests. So just added food for thought.





  • I like that, the UK student loans definitely seem like an interesting model, especially since it sounds like it’s been working. I also imagine that as long as the rate of repayment is somewhat predictable for a large enough body of loans, some depositors would be willing to take a gradual reduction in their funds, potentially while continuing to contribute to their accounts, as long as they like the research outcomes and social benefits those loans are enabling. The partial repayment enables the community lender group / credit union to essentially donate to/support far more projects, and far larger projects, at a steadier rate over time, than they would with zero repayment (pure grants only).


  • Exactly, 100%. Small business loans are a way to fund new businesses without ending up with non-worker owners. So once the businesses get off the ground and pay off their loans, they can get into a steady state that’s good for their workers, customers, etc without needing to grow further.

    Your last point is a very good one and I think the main reason why venture capital is so much more popular than traditional loans in industries that can get access to venture capital (particularly tech). It’s why I wonder if some credit unions with civic-minded members might opt for some hybrid options that have more generous terms if the research doesn’t pay off.

    E.g. loans with voluntary repayment (it becomes a donation otherwise, but the lenders have less money to keep contributing to others in the community). Or at least the ability to renegotiate payment timelines collaboratively. Seems like an important thing to come up with creative approaches for, in order to make loans more attractive even for high-risk innovative research endeavors.


  • In addition to the other models people have mentioned, one I think that’s an important and sometimes overlooked alternative to venture funding is a good-old-fashioned small business loan. Venture funding became super attractive to startups because it looks kinda like free money. If your startup fails, you don’t have to pay it back, they take on the risk with you. However, if you succeed, they own you forever. And they are going to demand a huge return on their investment to pay for all the other ones that failed.

    So in certain light, investment funding is kind of like a super predatory type of loan. With a traditional loan, you have fixed terms, you pay it back, then you’re done with them. With equity investors, you’re never rid of them, as you noted. They sell their piece onto someone else of their choosing, who demands you make them even more money, etc. When the startup period’s over, if you’re not making enough money, yeah technically you don’t have to pay back the loan every quarter. But the investors will fire you and hire different management unless you lay off half your workforce, cut the quality of your product, and make a much bigger margin by next quarter.

    Also, lenders can have different structures and we can improve those as well. Instead of traditional banks, they could be credit unions with particular community objectives. Local members deposit their savings, and vote on lending principles and goals, like prioritizing lending to local worker-owned co-ops in their geographic area, and/or lending to community land trusts to enable purchasing of more real estate away from asset-based markets, fund construction of new housing, etc.

    Edit: Plus, a credit union could agree on how to handle cases in which the co-op/organization can’t pay back their loan. How to re-negotiate terms, when to vote on forgiving the remainder of the loan (turning it into a community donation) potentially based on demonstrated non-monetary value delivered to the community, and how to distribute that loss among the depositors, etc. There might be options for depositors to opt their funds into riskier loans, or loans they’re willing to turn into crowd-funded donations, maybe even loans with voluntary pay-back terms only (i.e. when the receiving organization can afford to pay it back, to enable more loans to good causes in the community), creating hybrid types of funding as well.