Roosevelt did great things for Americans while still being capitalist. The needle can be moved left without violent revolution.
“Both sides bad” is weak sauce.
Quick reminder that there were other things going on in the 20s and 30s. You know, the height of socialism in the West, a strong labor movement willing to burn down factories, stuff like that. The New Deal didn’t come because leftists played nice.
The coal wars threatening to kick off a second civil war, y’know small things.
Blue Morpho apparently never learned about the Battle of Blair Mountain or the Railway Strikes.
So there ARE conditions by which reform can occur, neat.
Yes, but you have to be willing to crack bourgeoisie skulls.
A socialist movement independent from either of the major parties too!
I feel like Western labour just doesn’t have any leverage anymore. The rich simply do not need us. They have outsourced enough labour that they really don’t care if we strike en masse. Like, shut down which factories? They’re all overseas.
That’s what they want you to think. Their own lives depend on Western labor. That’s who runs the ports, the railways, the warehouses, etc. Also a lot of high-tech stuff is still in the West.
No, the new deal only came to be after violent protests, and was largely a betrayal of labor groups because it gave a much watered down version of what was actually demanded, all while Roosevelt broke the strike he promised to support while campaigning. Read “Labor’s Giant Step Forward” by Art Preis if you want a more detailed accpunt
In addition to the points raised by some of the other comments I’d remind you of one uncomfortable truth. The business plot was attempted fascist takeover of America. That was thankfully put down because remarkably there was one honorable ex-marine they tried to involve the plot. That’s Smedley Butler. In the wake of that that attempted fascist coup basically nobody was punished. In large part because Roosevelt told them as long as they kept their mouth shut and didn’t block the New Deal he wouldn’t go after them. That’s basically the only reason it got through. Truncated as it was even then. Because most of the richest and most powerful people in the country we’re looking down the barrel of a gun otherwise.
Prescott Bush and his cronies should have been hanged.
And Smedley Butler Day should be a national holiday.
Have fun wasting your time doing this. If they only fucked over Burnie once I might agree with you.
Well, they will still try. They won’t give it up. But it’s not possible to win it against them, like the Tea Party won against less extreme establishment Republicans
If you had to go back almost a hundred years to find any kind of example, I’m just going to gesture broadly at the next hundred years and rest my case.
Roosevelt was the least bad president and was ruling during a time where the US ended up on the right side of a conflict. He still did not abolish capitalism or the American empire, nor did he have any intentions to.
But that doesn’t make the democrats good, it doesn’t make one side better, it doesn’t make the US good.
it doesn’t make one side better
One side IS objectively better.
That’s proven by economic stats.
That’s proven by voting history.
That’s proven by criminal conviction history.
There is no debate which side is better if you’re even remotely interested in facts.
You take the side that is better and you reform it by primarying the reps that won’t play ball for their constituents., sending a clear message to the reps that remain. That is how democracy works in its most effective form.
With unintelligent comments like yours and all the discussions happening below meme threads, conflicts and violence is where we are heading to. I encourage you to learn more about the things you are talking about.
can it be done again without another series of protests and pain the current era of capitalism?
Both sides are functionally the same when it comes to the world. There’s barely a difference between domestic policy between the two American parties. One uses sweet nothing’s to try assuage your fears and the other uses Force and strongman techniques.
Yeah the FDR Reformation came directly from FDR and we pushed through at his behest. According to my understanding of these politics at a time if The president hadn’t been FDR we would not have gotten those Reformations. Besides they hardly matter nowadays when they’re practically entirely Stripped Away. The last surviving one is social security and they’re pretty gung-ho about getting rid of that too.
Both sides
Instant downvote. Lazy trash.
Couldn’t be bothered to read. Ad hominem attack. Excellent representation of the American voter.
People who type the words “both sides” and then post don’t deserve to have their comments read.
People who are unable to read are one of the reason the United States is in the toilet.
People who use fallacies so they don’t have to engage with the objective facts of an argument they’re not able to impeach are another reason the world is falling to facism
Both sides are varying degrees of the same ideology, give all the money to the economic elite so they bribe both parties into maintaining that policy above all other considerations.
One side shrugs and calls it free market forces(D) as you suffer under that policy goal, the other points and laughs at you and says you deserve it®. That is the extent of our “freedom” under American democracy.
One side appoints Justices that voted against Citizens United and one appoints Justices that voted for it. That’s a huge distinction.
Yep.
All the keyboard warriors talking about revolution need to either pick up and gun and do it or get off their asses and help primary bad Dems to send a message and start the reformation process.
No one who made it out of high school should be saying “both sides” because it’s a profoundly stupid and unproductive thing to say. Did we have masked squads disappearing people before January? Did our allies all hate us? Were we threatening fucking Canada? Were we paying tariff taxes?
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What is the point of this meme? I feel like the only thing this can produce is people to not try to reform and improve the democratic party and take it over (like the tea party took over the republicans). Kind of like these “give up climate change it can’t be stopped” posts that just benefits the big fossil fuels companies
That’s the point, I’ve noticed a lot of the loudest, most active posters on Lemmy ultimately want one thing, which is progressives not to vote. Weird how that’s what the conservatives have relied on for every presidential victory they’ve achieved in the past half century or more.
Votes are earned not freely given. Your vote is your voice. Definitely vote at the local and state levels where your voice can be the loudest.
And if you only want to give half a vote, give it to Trump and JD.
(Because not voting is very similar to half a vote for the other guy.)
(Because not voting is very similar to half a vote for the other guy.)
Not voting wasn’t a vote for Trump. Did not voting for Trump mean a vote for Harris?
Did not voting for Trump mean a vote for Harris?
It would mean you wouldn’t have minded a Harris victory. The comment even explicitly said “half a vote” to reflect this.
This commentary is frequently also accompanied with blaming Harris voters for things that Trump is doing…
It was.
don’t worry bout dat
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First off, it’s four years, get your math right. Secondly, we only bomb browns, we just sell the bombs to anyone wanting to bomb whites. “Foreigner” and “non-foreigner” really have nothing to do with it. I think mainly we just feel really secluded over here and we don’t want to be left out of all the cool Europe and Asia and Africa happenings, this is just the only way we can express ourselves.
What is the point of this meme?
These memes communicate to Democrats and their supporters that we’re sick and tired of their mask-off conservative rule when they promise us the world and do nothing once elected. You want praise? You want votes? Then do something.
Since, you know, not voting for them apparently isn’t enough to inspire meaningful change. Just once in my life I want to see Democrats fight harder for the working class and poor as they do against socialists and third parties.
You want praise? You want votes? Then do something.
Time for you to educate yourself. Look up Dem’s economic stats compared to Republicans. Look up the Dem’s voting history.
They aren’t doing EVERYTHING, but they do a lot more than the other viable option.
If you want them to do more, then stop wasting your time doing what you’re doing and start focusing on getting people to primary Dems who aren’t doing what we want, because that’s how you get Democrat party reform.
This meme is utter trash and only serves to fracture liberals and prevent the reform I just described.
Just once I want liberals to come together and primary bad Dems to send a message instead of fucking whining and not voting or voting 3rd party so fascists can take over.
Just once I want liberals to come together and primary bad Dems
That bad candidate was Joe Biden.
The Democratic Party just ignored it. Democratic primaries are a worthless exercise.
Joe Biden was not primaried.
Yes he was.
Read the link I embedded there. Also, there was Marianne Williamson.
Not that it would have mattered, as Democrats rig their primaries anyway.
You should not attempt to reform something which is not reformable. Instead start something new.
In general, you should not reform. Revolution is the way forward.
You should not attempt to reform something which is not reformable.
Pick up a fucking history book.
Political party reform is entirely possible and has happened repeatedly in American history. Conservative voters just did it to the Republican party.
Scrapping an established party with national sway for a 3rd party with NO clout and NO representatives in the House or Senate is fucking stupid. Especially when we have a national party in power currently attempting to dismantle our federal government to replace with an authoritarian one.
Revolution is the way forward.
Then do it. Big talk on the internet. If you think modern Americans are going to start a revolution, think again.
Easy to say from your parents basement.
Instead of projection, try self-reflection.
We need to capture the dems and turn them into a socialist party, just like the fascists captured the reps and turned them into a anti-worker. I spent way too long in the army to have the illusion that the american people are capable of changing anything through other means. It will not happen.
Not to be ignorant but I highly doubt you have the training, funding, or even the intestinal fortitude to do any of the things a revolution would entail. I also think that if you did find the courage it wouldn’t matter because when they drop a non-explosive shredder warhead through your window it’s all over. You have no idea what your asking people to do when there is a better way.
This reform is simply not possible. You cannot use the same methods as the far right and expect the same result but for a different ideology. They work differently, they’re based on different systems and beliefs.
And you seriously underestimate the power of revolutionary warfare. Technological advances in military warfare have made things harder, but not impossible. In 93 Russians were in the streets fighting the Russian military to overthrow Yeltsin. They had the courage, even without the military training. On Vietnam a nation and it’s people successfully defended their freedom against a technologically superior army. And I don’t think I need to list how many coups and revolutions have appeared over the past 100 years. You can’t think it’s impossible looking at history.
I am no billionaire able to fund a milita, nor am I a general. But when the time arises or rather if it arises while I live, I do have the zeal to kill and die for what I believe in.
No, as I said I was in the military for almost a decade. I promise you I’m way more versed in the art of turning people into fertilizer than you ever will be. 1993 was 30 some years ago. The techg for killing people has improved drastically. You have no idea how many ways the US has to kill you. I saw things in 2005 that would still blow your mind.
Technological advances do not change societal upheaval.
Revolutions don’t fight the military in symmetrical warfare.
Militaries can defect, they can be sabotaged, their bases besieged, their supply lines disrupted, their forces stretched too thin, etc.
In ideal circumstances no revolution would have to fight one united military. Parts would defect or declare neutrality. Those who fight have finite supply and finances. What will a soldier do when he runs out of bullets and more importantly rations?
But in the absolute worst case, it will either lead to a more bloody victory or the military would have to literally depopulate the country with lethal force to establish their rule.
Also the 90s are not so far from your 2005. The majority of the military equipment Russia uses today in Ukraine is the same as during the Black October in 93.
What steps have you taken to start the New American Revolution, champ?
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Smart. Having one’s echo chamber and worldview contested can be terribly inconvenient.
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China produces ~65% of global smartphones. At worst US companies simply re-brand products from overseas OEMs, at best they’re using Chinese produced semiconductors and components to create original products.
The rest of the consumer electronics market is pretty similar. If you believe modern China is communist then they are “doom-scrolling on their communist-produced smartphones” through a communist produced network infrastructure which you are, most likely, reading through a communist-produced screen.
I would argue however that modern China largely split the difference between the USSR, which you are McCarthy-ing about, and the modern Russian Federation, which explicitly reformed into a liberal democracy with a capitalist market economy.
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Let me simplify: iPhones are built and designed by, what you consider, Communists.
Android is capitalism appropriating the largely anarchist project of Linux. Which if capitalists had their way would’ve been strangled in its cradle.
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Aaaaand, you have no arguments to the contrary…
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That’s exactly it. This is the meme and attitude of tankies that are chomping at the bit for violence and doing everything they can to help push the country to the Right. This is because of their faith-based belief that it will magically create class consciousness and a revolution to overthrow the global bourgeoisie. They don’t give two shits about the LGBTQ+, POC, medically vulnerable, etc people that they have to sacrifice in the process.
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You are correct. The OP has an agenda and that agenda is to fracture liberals.
The answer is not to give up. The answer is not to vote for a worthless 3rd party with zero chance of winning. The answer is to reform the Democrat party and history has shown us, repeatedly, that it is completely possible. And it literally just happened with the Republican party in the last 2 decades.
This is a right-wing troll talking point. Don’t listen to it.
Go to the Democratic primaries and move the party left. And then, no matter who gets the nomination, vote Dem in the general election. This is exactly what the nazis did to move the GOP to the right and it worked great for them, and it’s something we can emulate.
Yeah, not listening to this defeatist garbage. The Democratic party has been changed before. It will be changed again. The party is not defined by some monolithic ideology. We need massive electoral reform in the US to ensure elections are actually fair. First past the post is problematic. House and Senate functions are problematic. We need a solution to the two party problem, but until then, our vehicle is the Democratic party. Best to make it do what we want it to rather than just give up because “they’re corporatists”.
Yeah, not listening to this defeatist garbage.
Defeatism is thinking the only option you have is playing by the rules the bourgeoisie instated, not “stop believing in a corrupt party”
Unlike you, we believe in multiple options. We’re trying to move the Dems to the left AND pushing for electoral reform AND planning an armed communist revolution.
And you’re just whining
no matter who gets the nomination, vote Dem in the general election
Its never worked before, but lets just try that again.
This is a right-wing troll talking point. Don’t listen to it. This is a far left anarchist talking point
Preach!
While I mostly agree with this, I have one significant hurdle I am unable to overcome. What other choice do I have?
I can’t stand most Democrats. They suck! But they are a far cry better than voting Republican. And voting for a third party feels like wasting my vote.
If there was a third party candidate that focused on climate change and social issues and had even the slightest chance of winning, I would vote for them in a second. Until then, I am stuck voting for the lesser of two evils.
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You are giving consent when you vote. You are saying this choice is fine.
Actually, when you vote, you just vote.
That’s it. It’s not a magic ritual, you don’t telepathically send your message to the Holy Ghost of Democracy when you vote, Anubis isn’t going to weigh your ballot against a feather before deciding on the fate of your soul.
You circle something or you don’t and then you deal with whatever happens however you want.
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Would you mind pointing me to somewhere where I could be educated on this matter?
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If you vote for someone in an electoral democracy you’re showing support for them, directly. Your vote is a translation of your democratic political power (in theory). It is the same as stating “I want this person in power/control”. For that reason, yes voting for someone is literally endorsing them.
Yeah, “(in theory)” - that doesn’t have to be inside brackets, all you speak of is a theoretical, ideal democracy. But what we have is, for many good and bad reasons, not even close to that (as can be seem from the actual process of any elections), and it is delusional and useless to act like it is.
So youre simultaneously saying you dont live in a democracy, and also that your vote matters? Those 2 ideas are entirely incompatible with each other.
So youre simultaneously saying you dont live in a democracy, and also that your vote matters?
I’m pretty sure I didnt say either of those things; I don’t wish to argue about the semantics regarding the first statement, and the second statement is definitely correct for large parts of the population in some nominally democratic western countries (specifically US and UK whose electoral systems are a fucking disgrace).
Also yes i am speaking about the notion of democracy itself, that’s why I put the words in theory there lol
Alright, but it’s clear that I dismissed this idealist/theoretical mode of dealing with politics in my first comment, and I don’t really see any arguments for reestablishing it.
Also yes i am speaking about the notion of democracy itself, that’s why I put the words in theory there lol
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They’re all happy to gaslight themselves into thinking that they’re the virtuous side, just like MAGA.
Meanwhile tens of millions of Americans are working three jobs at 100 hours a week just to be able to rent a roach-infested studio, which in the minds of Democrats, is apparently a-okay because they did nothing meaningful about it.
Also, everything you’re seeing now, from normalized police brutality, to ICE raids, to black torture sites, to government-sponsored abductions (“extraordinary renditions”), to unilateral presidential warmaking… was all also done and supported by Democrats. Obama even killed an American with a drone strike. And, for more fun, go look up which president it was that appointed Tom Homan.
The only difference is one side gives nicer speeches.
Then cry and abstain from voting or vote 3rd party and see what it gets us.
Oh wait, it’s already fucking happening.
When I was younger the Dems fought a protracted battle to get me affordable healthcare, with the Republicans trying to block it at every turn. The result is I got affordable healthcare when I had NONE before.
You should do yourself a favor and educate yourself. Look up how our economy fairs under Dems compared to Repubs. Look up both party’s voting history and find out which one actually regularly votes in favor of the middle and lower classes. Look up their criminal conviction histories.
If you educated yourself you’d find out that one party is INFINITELY better for us than the other and if we actually got off our fucking asses and primaried the Dems that weren’t onboard with what we want, they’d become even better for us.
Instead you’re crying on the internet and trying to get people to give up.
You are part of the problem.
Dems fought a protracted battle to get me affordable healthcare
No. They pretended to, and then when the cost of health care rose to where it was unaffordable they shrugged their shoulders and left you and others to die in ER’s. The ‘access’ Dems like to talk about disappears if you can’t pony up for some health care CEO’s superyacht.
You should do yourself a favor and educate yourself.
You should stop making excuses. The last six months under Donald Trump have proven that every time you pretended Democrats were powerless, you were wrong.
You are part of the problem.
No, you’re the problem, because Democrats cannot fail badly enough to get you to change.
How are things now compared to when the American revolution happened?
hahahahaha!!!1!
Yes, that’s totally a meaningful comparison. Like, let me put on my trilby*, check on my slaves while I ride a horse to town, and discuss the broadsheet nailed to the side of the tavern with the other white land-owning men.
*tricorn
Tricorn. Trilbys wouldn’t be invented for at least another century.
You’re correct. Edited.
You are giving consent when you vote. You are saying this choice is fine.
No, you are saying “Of the realistic choices I have I’m choosing what is BEST”.
Maybe America is at a point where voting is not the solution.
Then do something about it. Talking about it on the internet is easy. You think modern Americans are going to revolt? Lol. Have fun with that.
people downvote this but ‘voting for the lesser of two evils’ is. What. Has. Got. You. Here.
No, what got us where we are right now is people crying about not wanting to vote for the lesser of two evils and allowing the real evil to waltz the fuck into power.
But they are a far cry better than voting Republican. And voting for a third party feels like wasting my vote.
You just answered your own question.
Democrats are FAR, FAR, FAR better than Republicans. We know this because the data shows they are better for our economy. We know this because their voting record shows that they regularly vote in favor of the middle and lower classes. We know this because they never attempted to violently overturn an election or send masked squads into our towns to abduct people off the street.
No 3rd party is viable or will be viable anytime in the near future. It will take YEARS and YEARS for a 3rd party to start winning local/state elections and getting reps in the House and Senate. And that’s IF a 3rd party actually starts putting in the work, which none are doing.
So if you want to be smart, and actually help protect our democracy, then you should vote Democrat in national elections and maybe vote 3rd party in local elections to help them gain some traction and see if they can do anything with it.
We know this because the data shows they are better for our economy
We know this because the data shows they are
better for our economyrich people’s money.FTFY.
They’re definitely not good for “our” money, meaning the 99% that works for a living, unless you’re of the opinion that outright ignoring food and rent becoming cost-prohibitive is somehow good for “our” money.
We know this because the data shows they are better for our economy rich people’s money.
Time for you to go back to high school econ. The healthier our economy, the more everyone benefits.
Totally, man.
Trickle-down economics has worked wonders.
If Zohran Mamdani gets elected and actually follows through with his campaign promises, this is factually incorrect. I am holding on to that last glimmer of hope.
actually follows through with his campaign promises
Don’t count on it. Not for any bad reason, just that things are harder to implement than campaign promises, whether it’s city council in the way or just practicality.
I’m just saying he can be a success without implementing all of his campaign ideas.
If he legitimately tries, that is enough for me.
I can almost guarantee you that both corporations and the right wing will try to stop or reverse anything he does. If he shows that the Republicans oppose these extremely popular initiatives, it might cause a massive swing of voters, who believed trump’s campaign promises, to shift over to the left.
https://gothamist.com/news/how-voters-in-trump-districts-helped-mamdani-win-the-democratic-primary
And you expect the party to simply follow suit and embrace his policies?
This post is talking about co-opting the D party. Which is exactly what Mamdani would be doing if he follows through.
This isn’t what would happen. Realistically all that will happen is the party ignoring him and continuing to pander to the right. The last time the democrats were progressive was under Roosevelt. Not much longer and that will be 100 years ago.
And that would be your opinion. Do you belive there is another path of action that can be taken that would result in better living standards for the majority of people in America?
You know Marx wrote several books about that. And he’s by far not the only person who has.
The first step in the right direction is delegitimising the state and its institutions. Protest, normalisation and strategic use of political violence. Disruption and sabotage of the economy as much as that’s possible for an individual or group. The building of mass movements, not necessarily political parties, with a concentrated vanguard leadership.
I am volunteering at my local DSA chapter to try to affect positve change in the direction of my views. So, what steps are you taking in the real world to make real change in the US?
It is great to have ideals, but if all you do is talk about how, “X is not possible and we actually need to do Y”, you discredit those who are actually putting in effort to make a change and discourage people from even trying.
I am actively engaging in a political party that seeks a departure from the US and NATO. It uses populist policies to polarize and at the same time weakens the far right by drawing from their ranks with said populist rhetoric and policies.
We are doing what we can, but to topple any government, conditions first have to worsen. As I’ve said before the best we can basically do is stoke the flames until the right conditions arise for real change.
My issue is not with people trying to act. It’s with people who act wrong either out of malice or just ignorance. That is what reform is. Capitalism has never been overthrown via reform and never will be now. Liberals are too brainwashed to realise that capitalism needs to be overthrown for any meaningful lasting change, so instead they act to feed it, thinking they can reform it into being good. Something which is not possible, as it goes against it’s structure and ideals.
No, I expect liberal voters to get off their asses and keep primarying establishment Dems that aren’t serving their constituents so we can reform the Democrat party.
I wish I could.
I’m expecting Hope and Change 2.0. Mamdani is almost certainly going to quickly be informed of how wealthy he and his kids can be and turn his back on New Yorkers if he gets elected, just like Obama.
This is GOP propaganda
Absolutely.
It’s Democrat propaganda too. OP is helping the dems lose, just like they want
Since when do they need help to do that?
They’ve always needed help to lose. The Republicans are so horrible, voting for literally anything else is a no brainer. That’s why they hire strategists and consulting firms to help them lose.
What the fuck are you talking about I’ve heard it a million fucking times already. Its all anti-Harris lefties talk about.
Having fun with the fascism we’ve got instead? Thanks for that BTW. Real good. Really makes me motivated to fight for my rights when my follow lefties keep empowering fascists through inaction in the most simplistic and basic fucking democratic function of going to a polling place and voting once every 4 years for the lib that’ll beat the fascist.
I really wanna go fight ICE in hand to hand combat and get shot in the fucking face knowing this probably could have been prevented.
Also if you are going to complain that I’m not bagging on the centrist/liberal dems for losing because they refused to budge left: I fucking hate them too, you can both suck shit directly out of my asshole.
Progressives do vote for centrists. Centrists do not return the favor and vote for progressives. Harris didn’t lose because the left staying home; the left held their nose and voted for her, even though that loyalty is a one-way street. She lost because she was such a dog shit candidate that she couldn’t drive enough people who aren’t highly politically engaged to the polls. The only reason she lost the election was because of her own poor decisions. Stop blaming the left for the failures of centrist democrats.
This is the same frustrating conversation we had to have when people blamed Clinton’s loss on Bernie bros staying home.
Even when we had concrete data that showed that a higher percentage of bernie voters voted for Clinton in 2016 than Clinton voters voted for Obama when he won the primaries.
The data tells us over and over that progressive and demsoc voters show up in higher numbers for candidates they prefer less than centrists will when presented with someone ideologically further left.
Are there people that wouldn’t vote for the centrist candidate, sure. But Mamdani is currently seeing how many centrists are happy to say “fuck strategy, I’m supporting cuomo!”
I get why those that still have faith in the Democratic Party are upset about the defeat. But I also understand why leftists are tired of being told “vote for this compromise candidate” in every election and even when we do turn out getting scape goated for them running garbage candidates that fail to capture the further left elements AND tons of non-left voters who sat at home and didn’t bother to vote.
Giving a shit is more work than not giving a shit. But voting for a candidate doesn’t mean you like them and it doesn’t bind you to supporting them. I can post “Harris is a cop fuck cops >:-(” after I voted for her.
IMO the key is: how long does it take you to vote, and if you don’t vote what are you doing with that time that is more valuable and progressive?
If someone told me, “I didn’t vote last election because I was campaigning 18 hours a day for native land rights and there was no way to get mail or reach a polling place” OK. I’m not blaming that person. They’re working way the fuck harder than I am to make the world better. If someone told me, “I didn’t vote last election because I barely survive on my three jobs and the GOP has made my polling place a 6 hour line that I have to drive to. I can’t even afford the gas to get there.” Yeah, that makes sense.
But I never hear that from online progressives. I hear, “oh I didn’t vote because both parties suck.” “I didn’t vote because they didn’t support <progressive issue>.” “I didn’t vote because there’s no point.” These are all shitty answers. Better answer is: “I did vote for the Democratic candidate and I’ll always vote for the most progressive candidate available.” That’s the minimum effort.
Liberals being dumb isn’t an excuse for us to be dumber. We’re supposed to be better than them.
She lost because Dems stayed home, low turnout in key Democratic areas. No matter how bad you think she was as a candidate you’re not going to convince me that she was worse than the dog shit candidate that won, and that’s on the people that stayed home.
She was objectively worse. Trump represented his base. Kamala didn’t. Trump is objectively the better politician. He gave his base exactly what they wanted. She refused to, preferring to pander to wealthy conservatives instead. You can argue she had better policies, but you cannot argue that she wasn’t an absolute dogshit candidate. She was simply bad at being a politician and had no business being at the top of the ticket.
You need to separate quality of policies from quality of candidate. You’ll never make any progress as long as you keep conflating the two.
She was objectively worse.
Today I learned a prosecutor with a doctorate in law who has committed no crimes and ran a campaign primarily focused on unity and inclusion is objectively worse than a convicted felon and adjudicated rapist who illegally attempted to overturn an election after inciting an insurrection and ran a campaign based on hate and fear.
She refused to, preferring to pander to wealthy conservatives instead.
She refused to lie through her fucking teeth to her base or make enemies of our fellow Americans to win an election. And she gave a podium to a prominent conservative that spoke out against Trump. Maybe not a great move, but not some betrayal.
She also ran with virtually no preparation out of necessity.
We can keep blaming Harris or we can start blaming stupid fucking Americans that jeopardized our democracy because she wasn’t the best candidate ever. Like, what kind of broken fucking brain thinks “well, she’s not that great, so let me gamble with a felon rapist traitor instead”?
Reading comprehension. You’re confusing policies for candidate quality. Trump was a good politician with shitty policies. Kamala was a dog shit politician with ok policies.
It’s pointless to blame the electorate because they’re not going anywhere. Or are you more of a Zionist type, who would prefer just killing the electorate if they don’t vote your way?
She was in-arguably the worst candidate because she lost. She wouldn’t have been the worst president.
The bullshit is centrists blaming it on the left. We told them how to win, and they went a different way. We showed up for her anyways, but the shitty candidate lost.
Any American that isn’t braindead stupid knew what was on the line this election.
And any American that knew what was on the line voted for Harris.
You can blame Democrats all day, and they do shoulder some blame, but the majority of the blame falls on stupid fucking Americans that couldn’t rub some brain cells together, not a party that isn’t great at messaging.
And what do you hope to accomplish by blaming the electorate? They’re not going anywhere. You can bitch about the voters all you want. But ultimately, if you fail to appeal to them, that just means you’re a bad politician. Complaining about voters is like complaining about the weather.
I can’t call Kamala Harris an idiot to her face, but I can call lots of voters idiots to their faces.
I’m blaming anyone who choose not to vote for her who were center or left of center. Anyone. As stated: if you are to my right or to my left and you explicitly choose not to vote for Harris and could have, you can suck shit.
If you discouraged people from voting for her: you can suck shit. If you constantly criticized her and barely talked about how fucking dangerous Trump is in general political discourse: you can suck shit.
Yeah, there are a lot of stupid fucking idiots out there, including on Lemmy, that are going to do the same stupid fucking thing they did last time and either not vote or vote for a 3rd party candidate that cannot, under any circumstance, win. And we’ll descend even further into fascism.
Lot of stupids. But as I scroll down these comments, the majority are calling this meme out for the stupid fucking bullshit that it is. So I still have a little hope. I’m sure that’ll get destroyed in the near future.
What the fuck are you talking about I’ve heard it a million fucking times already. Its all anti-Harris lefties talk about.
Uh, no. This anti-Harris lefty, like the vast majority of anti-Harris lefties, knows an outside strategy is insane and mostly right wing propaganda.
Having fun with the fascism we’ve got instead?
Maybe if there had been more anti-Harris lefties in the party, we would have had a viable candidate. The hardline centrists did this.
makes me motivated to fight for my rights when my follow lefties keep empowering fascists through inaction
Nope. The following is from a Pew Research study.
The typology groups at either end of the political spectrum, Faith and Flag Conservatives and Progressive Left, are also the most politically engaged – that is, they voted at the highest rates in the 2020 presidential election, and they are most likely to say they post about politics on social media and that they donated to campaigns. The groups in the middle of the ideological spectrum have much lower levels of political engagement.
So quit uncritically accepting the mainstream establishment excuses. Harris lost because she was a shitty candidate, not because the left doesn’t vote.
you can both suck shit directly out of my asshole.
Gosh, were you out campaigning for Harris? I just can’t understand how she didn’t attract more voters. Scolding voters seems like such a solid strategy. /s
Uh, no. This anti-Harris lefty, like the vast majority of anti-Harris lefties, knows an outside strategy is insane and mostly right wing propaganda.
I meant anti-Harris lefties who actively wanted her to lose to Trump. (Which TBH, if they were vocally anti-Harris when it was clear it was her or Trump, they did)
Maybe if there had been more anti-Harris lefties in the party, we would have had a viable candidate.
How? How would you propose that could have realistically happened?
Nope. The following is from a Pew Research study.
So quit uncritically accepting the mainstream establishment excuses. Harris lost because she was a shitty candidate, not because the left doesn’t vote.
Did I say it was specifically because “the left doesn’t vote”? No.
Its partially because more of them don’t vote compared to the last election.
https://www.commondreams.org/news/harris-gaza
https://www.teenvogue.com/story/kamala-harris-moved-right-did-it-cost-her-the-election
https://www.newsweek.com/kamala-harris-underperformed-three-demographics-1981222
The ratios of progressives vs centrists who normally vote anyway is irrelevant. What is crucial is the percentage shift in voting behavior within groups election to election. Clearly this election centrist Democrats, Progressive Democrats, and left leaning indies failed to get out and vote compared to previous elections.
Its not hard to figure out why but its not a singular reason.
Now does some of the blame go to the Democratic establishment? ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY. But not all of it.
Fuck everyone even remotely responsible. Just fuck them. I legitimately hate them. (Including Harris and Biden themselves)
Gosh, were you out campaigning for Harris? I just can’t understand how she didn’t attract more voters. Scolding voters seems like such a solid strategy. /s
I did actually, I traveled 5 hours out of state to canvass for her in a swing state. I was a different person then.
I can tell you, I’m done now. Political action is dead for me. I don’t want to swim up a fucking waterfall anymore. I’m done spending my own time and money on this shit. Not enough people give a flying fuck. If it takes things getting critically apocalyptic-level bad for average people to move their dumb-fuck-asses and be politically conscious about what is going to happen to them when fascists win I can’t bring myself to care about them anymore.
So you can go ahead and choose to not vote next election. I don’t care enough to argue with you on that now. Because now it wont be arguments convincing people, it’ll be catastrophic damage done to the country and their ability to put 2 and 2 together.
The time of bickering for positive change is over. Now we get to see some mass death and material suffering. I already tried. I not putting more of myself in for a ride I very much did not sign up for and in fact tried very hard to avoid.
At this point I’m just screaming into brick wall for a sliver of catharsis.
I meant anti-Harris lefties who actively wanted her to lose to Trump
If you think that’s a large enough group that it had any impact whatsoever on the election, then you are insane.
How? How would you propose that could have realistically happened?
Well, for one we wouldn’t have nominated Biden and never would have been in that position with Harris. We might have also held Biden’s feet to the fire more, thus discovering his mental state long before election time.
Its partially because more of them don’t vote compared to the last election.
None of that says that “lefties” in particular didn’t vote for Harris. Left policy sells, so a further left Harris would have done better, but that’s the establishment’s fault, not leftists. It also doesn’t take a leftist to be against genocide.
Now does some of the blame go to the Democratic establishment? ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY. But not all of it.
That’s funny, because nothing you said before gave them any fault at all, and you definitely seemed in the mood to throw fault around.
So you can go ahead and choose to not vote next election. I don’t care enough to argue with you on that now.
WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING TO?
you have no choice except this or violent revolt because your election system is garbage.
don’t threaten me with a good time. (fully aware that a revolt is not a good time)
haha yeah, i mean, whatever ppl want, i just want them to be realistic about this, rather than pretending suddenly a plurality of the American voting populace in enough states are going to start voting DSA. XD
Lol.
Americans are too pussy to violently revolt. If it was going to happen it would have already happened.
So the next, actually realistic option, is to change the Democrat party by primarying the shit out of the reps that won’t get onboard with what liberals want.
How do I know this is possible? Because conservative voters just did it to the Republican party over the last decade or two.
i agree that i don’t think Americans have what it takes for an actual revolt.
i also agree that the actual Left should stop clutching their pearls and take over the Democratic party.
There’s no way to win political power in the United States without the Democratic Party or the Republican Party.
Socialists and progressives will always have an easier time infiltrating the neoliberal Democratic Party over the fascist Republican Party.
The longer the fascists are in power the harder it will be remove them from power because they will change the rules to maintain power.
The optimal strategy remains to vote for neoliberals when the alternative is fascists because that is how to create time for socialists and progressives to primary neoliberals in the Democratic Party and win general elections.
This meme is a continuation of the accelerationism we saw during the 2024 election. It supports the fascist cause by attempting to sabotage leftist’s best strategy and thus is pro-fascist. The user is prone to self-sabotage as they publicly admitted to not voting for Harris in 2024.
If a fascist drinks at your bar and you don’t throw them out it’s a fascist bar. If a fascist meme ends up in your community and you don’t throw it your a fascist community.
I am reporting this meme. And you all should too. I’m sick of self-described leftists backstabing me and every other minority group they pretend to care about because they’re mad about the 2016 election. I’m a trans, atheist, Jew. I’m close enough to the death camps for my liking thanks. You don’t have to like the Democrats, I don’t, but we do need to vote for them.
I refuse to go quietly. I refuse to tolerate memes that shrug at my right to exist and throw fuel to the fire in the hopes that the fascists kill everyone faster. That’s not a real political position. It’s black pilled bullshit and it can fuck off.
Hope that helps people stop tolerating this bullshit going forward.
In the 70s, people were making this argument about voting for the lesser of two evils, but it was between two Keynesians rather than two neoliberals. That was 50 years ago. Nixon was to the left of every president in my lifetime. 50 years from now, just how right wing will the Democrat we have to vote for be?
With Gavin Newsom, a Charlie Kirk podcast guest, the choice in 2028 might be two fascists.
We lost to Nixon and it got worse. We lost to Regan and it got worse. We lost to two different Bushes and it got worse. Now we’ve lost to Trump twice and it got worse.
The throughline is that we keep losing to the greater evil and suffering the consequences of things getting worse as a result. That includes worse choices next time as the Democrats move to the right to chase the people who vote for the greater evil. As opposed to going for people who don’t vote or throw away their vote to a third party.
The Democratic Party is going to be rightwing until people learn we have to vote in addition to everything else to get Democrats to move to the left. They will only think about moving left if they win elections. And they only move left when they think they have enough voters to win when they do move.
If we, leftists, want better choices in 50 years we have got to vote in records numbers, so if Democrats get their act together and get someone half-way decent they win. And when they do, they see a leftist voter block got them there.
We elected Carter and it got worse, we elected Clinton and it got worse, we elected Obama and it got worse, we elected Biden and it got worse.
The throughline is that we keep beating the greater evil and suffering the consequences of things getting worse as a result.
Those wins are we how we got gay marriage. After decades of activism queer people won rights. It took time and effort and consistently turning out for elections. And a ton of shifting the culture through the media people consumed. But the voting is a mechanical necessity to bring that result about. There’s no way around it. We need to vote for the furthest left Democrats we can.
I put out half of the fires that started in my kitchen, but my house still burned down! Putting out fires is a sucker’s game.
If even after putting out fire the house burns down you do have to cut your loses and let the house burn down.
That’s what I’m saying, man! I must have turned off the oven when I was done cooking a hundred times. And the very first time I don’t turn the oven off, it starts a fire. So what good did turning the oven off do?
If you turn off the oven and it still catches on fire, that’s not a you problem, that’s a problem with the oven. No amount of turning the knob will make it safe.
So you’re saying even if we lose again and again, we have to keep trying and hold onto hope? No way, man! Giving up and leaving our friends for dead is the leftist choice. Actually trying is neoliberalism
Add a /s please to jokes like that, my heart needs it
The accelerationists unironically believe that!
/s
🫶
Guess what would have happened if Nixon and Reagan had lost
The point is that they didn’t. It’s all well and good for those of use who choose to talk about politics in our free time to say that, yes, sometimes you have to vote for someone you don’t like in order to prevent a worse outcome. But that’s a conversation between individuals! As a campaign message, the kind of thing that needs broad appeal to millions of voters, that is a loosing message that only depresses turnout!
Good thing I’m not a campaign manager and you’re not the entire voting population. You and I are two individuals. And as you say, we should talk about strategic choices.
yayyy the same conversation we have every week on this websiteeeeeee shall we remind one another that 30 years ago there was a protest in tiananmen while we’re at it
I mean, the Democrats just ran a historically bad campaign. No primary, consistently bad polling, a candidate with one foot in the grave swapped out at the very last minuet for a VP who didn’t even survive Super Tuesday back in 2020.
That nearly a year later we keep rehashing the efficacy of “Vote Blue No Matter” lesser-evil strategic voting, kinda doesn’t bode well, does it? That even those of us plugged in and paying attention feel like the party isn’t gonna learn any lessons, so we better start preemptively defending their future fuck ups. You think the broader public of disinterested yankees is really gonna rally behind that?
Why are you backpedalling on your opinion? You said it’s “all well and good” for two individuals like us to talk about strategic voting. Were you lying when you said that?
people also ignore local elections, which is where the gop gets thier base of power from. once they take over things like school boards, and such they can work thier way into higher positions.
Thank you for putting that out there. I still cannot see making any other choice when it came time to vote. The too-close death camps you refer to were a very predictable consequence of this administration. I’m just a straight white guy but I really prefer to not add death camps to the world, or to disappear peaceful productive people from their communities, or to significantly harm the lives of millions of young, old, poor, or disabled people. That includes the ones starving overseas because of recent changes.
“But genocide!” we expect to hear in response. And if any dear readers are already thinking that, I want you to take this one fact away from my comment:
The deeply flawed US voting system — the one which forces the two party system on us — is damned near impossible to change via normal legislation and votes.
It’s THE thing. It is that mechanism that lets the red/blue capitalist american machine continue to vacuum up the vast majority of american votes. Go look up just how much agreement there has to be to amend the constitution. And we’re going to ask the people already in charge to get together and agree to kneecap their future political power. You see the issue.
Sure, the media is complicit and most voters are ignorant of the fact that there are better systems in place around the world. It’s true that a lot can be done outside of elected positions. But when it comes to the actual voting ballot, since the system self-corrects (in a bad way) for significant third parties, the expected consequences of each choice were something like:
- Status quo, including any US resources being used for genocide and other shit.
- Genocide Max plan, with 4 free years of Death Camp Prime
- Flip a coin between 1 & 2 above (stay home or vote for a third party hoping it will get them recognition and funding)
- Revolution and replace the system, like right now!
And I want to add a caveat that I’m not trying to blame the people who chose #3 above. Before the election I would disagree with that choice, but now in retrospect we know those people weren’t the reason Trump and Republicans won. I guess it remains to be seen how much of it was the genuine love for Trump the maniacs in this place have, and how much of it was election rigging and cheating BS.
The optimal strategy remains to vote for neoliberals when the alternative is fascists because that is how to create time for socialists and progressives to primary neoliberals in the Democratic Party and win general elections.
With all due respect, that strategy got us fascism. The terminology has changed, but I could tell close to 30 years ago that this would be the result. Is three decades not enough time for socialists and progressives to “primary” neoliberals? Apparently not, because socialsts/progressives/leftists are lazy, good-for-nothings who are simultaneously powerful enough to swing elections, but too inconsequential to talk about their issues or court their votes.
In other words, maybe these vaunted “centrists”/liberals should’ve stepped up to stop fascism. (And, it’s not leftists who say that Harris “went too woke” and now want to throw trans people under the bus.)
With all due respect, that strategy got us fascism.
That argument is obviously false. We, people to the left of Republican voters, have been losing elections and Democrats since Clinton have been moving right as a result.
Apparently not, because socialsts/progressives/leftists are lazy, good-for-nothings who are simultaneously powerful enough to swing elections, but too inconsequential to talk about their issues or court their votes.
Of course we need more than just leftists to vote. We need to demonstrate a leftist voter block was part of what got Democratic candidates into office. So the Democrats feel they have voters to cover the ones on the right they think they could lose by shifting left.
In other words, maybe these vaunted “centrists”/liberals should’ve stepped up to stop fascism.
Yes. There can be more than one lesson to learn from an election. Democrats fucking up more than us doesn’t mean we don’t have a lesson to learn too. Obviously Democrats have to do better. But if they win without leftists when they do run a better candidate, they aren’t going to shift left. They’ll think they’ve hit the sweet spot and stay put on the political spectrum.
False? We employed that strategy, i.e. voted for Democrats multiple times over decades without demanding that they do better, and now we have fascism. That’s not to say that the strategy caused fascism, but self-evidently didn’t stop it.
The user who made this post made a point of proudly declaring they did not vote for president when the election rolled around last year. Because ‘voters in California don’t matter’. Except we do, because we contribute to the popular vote which Republicans love to use rhetorically to claim everyone else needs to shut up because they have the mandate.
Which they don’t have because Trump didn’t even get a majority of the voters, just the most out of any candidate. But it’s still a free win to them anyway.
Democrats lost elections and leftists weren’t the base consistently voting. Neoliberals and neocons and now fascists are the groups that vote regularly. Accelerationism is self-evidently getting us to fascism faster.
Republicans love to use rhetorically to claim everyone else needs to shut up because they have the mandate.
Republicans also love to completely ignore the popular vote when they lose it, just like they did when Trump lost the popular vote in 2016. Anyone who isn’t a MAGAt and hears that argument and takes them seriously is either ignorant or are being obtuse.
I’m not saying that people shouldn’t still vote, they certainly should but for more practical reasons like getting leftists elected to local and regional offices wherever that is possible.
If you live in a Red State, and in a Red county, and in a Red Township, your vote likely won’t mean a whole lot, but you should still do it, but not because you can throw it back in a Republicans face when they lose the popular vote because they quite literally do not care.
You’re right, and I like your advice. I reported the post
I agree and disagree.
Yes, we will have an easier time infiltrating the DNC, but we should never forget that they are not on our side and will fight against us getting in as much as they can. We should still try, but have our eyes open as well.
Yes, we definitely should practice harm reduction and vote for neoliberals when the alternative is fascists. The part we really need to focus on (short term) is actually getting people to pay attention to and care about the primaries. Too many of us feel hopeless and skip that step. It’s just as important as elections, if not more so. But again- we absolutely have to realize that our enemy when it comes to the primaries is the DNC, not the GOP. They have swore under oath that they believe they have the right to influence and manipulate primaries to get Neolibs on the ballot and keep progressives/leftists off, and the court agreed they had that right. It’s their policy to do so. We simply cannot rely on their help and need to come up with strategies to work around their meddling and interference.
This meme is a continuation of the accelerationism we saw during the 2024 election.
I don’t believe it is. You can still believe in and practice harm reduction, while having a realistic understanding of the situation at the same time. The DNC and GOP literally control the elections. and while it is possible we can sneak a few progressives and leftists past them, we will very likely never be able to take it over completely. They will NEVER vote to end the two party system, it makes them too powerful.
Our best hope is to get as many leftists into the DNC as we possibly can, while at the same time building momentum and support for a viable 3rd party coalition of everyone on the left. It’s also critical we focus on educating the public and combating the billionaire owned mainstream media. We also have to build a network of local mutual aid communities that can serve all of those goals, while showing people that an alternative is not only possible, but preferable to relying on the system.
Once a critical mass of support has been gained, all of the DNC infiltrators can exit for the Left party en masse, not only weakening the DNC, but truly highlighting the differences between the two. At that point the tables will have been turned and people who vote D will be taking away votes from the L’s and allowing the fascists to win.
I believe that is the only way to get an actual viable alternative to the DNC. Like the meme says we will not be able to reform it. Our only hope is to get asses in seats in Congress and force through election reform. IF we can manage to get rid of the first past the post style voting, and end the electoral college, then we would never again have to worry about voting for the lesser evil. That should be our number 1 long term goal.
I think going from recognizing that the Democrats will never be reformed to that means we won’t vote for them over fascists and even worse that makes us pro- fascist is a hell of a stretch- and reporting memes that point out the truth is madness.
I am reporting this meme. And you all should too.
jfc. This isn’t intended as a “fascists on both sides” argument, but you really need to take a moment and look at yourself there.
“We’d rather have a convicted felon pedophile be president because the Democrats don’t want to dismantle capitalism entirely and replace with… well we don’t know what with”.
- Absolute fucking dumbasses.
Strawman? Like 3 separate strawman arguments?
Strawgang.
You’re arguing against your own masturbatory fantasy.
The left came out and voted for Harris. They held their nose and voted for the shit pile centrist, as they always do. We’ve seen with Mamdani that this loyalty is a one way street. Progressives hold their nose and vote for centrists, but centrists do not return the favor.
Harris lost because she couldn’t drive enough politically unaligned, low-engagement voters to the polls. The average person who isn’t that involved in politics simply didn’t think it was credible that Harris would improve their lives in any way.
Aside from a few performative tankies, the message I kept reading on lemmy was “I’m going to vote for Harris, but her dog shit policies are going to cost her the election.” And those progressive voices were ignored. Their desperate warnings were drowned out by people like yourself, sticking their fingers in their ears and going, “BLAH BLAH BLAH CAN’T HEAR YOU, VOTE BLUE NO MATTER WHO! IT’S YOUR FAULT IF THE FASCISTS WIN, I HOLD NO RESPONSIBILITY HERE!”
Harris lost because she couldn’t drive enough politically unaligned, low-engagement voters to the polls.
If those low engagement voters couldn’t make it to the polls to protect our democracy and prevent a felon rapist traitor from becoming President, then the problem lies primarily with those fucking fools, not Kamala Harris.
Why do you expect anyone to care about democracy. Only the wealthiest 10% of the population lives in a democracy. 90% of the population has zero actual democratic power. You don’t live in a democracy.
And Kamala, a candidate who was annointed, not elected, could credibly run on a platform of democracy.
The inside strategy is far simpler
I love how it’s the fault of the voters and not the fault of the democrats for being shit, centrists, and genocide enjoyers
Why the new account? Did your last one get banned for this same bullshit trolling?
If Bernie Sanders doesn’t want to dismantle the current Democrats then it’s entirely Bernie’s fault. He’s to blame for capitalism.
Bernie created capitalism, he can destroy it. He chooses not to!
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somebody said it nicely yesterday in a lemmy comment:
we need to capture the dems and turn them into a socialist party,
just like the fascists captured the reps and turned them into a nazi partyBingo.
Dems will become the second nazi party before it becomes a socialist party. You saw the lip service to Bush.
You can do what the tea party did: capture a small enough portion of your voting base that covers the margin of victory (aka: the short hairs) and demand the party do your bidding.
If they cared about victory, you’d be right. But it’s becoming pretty clear they care far more about money. If they’re paid to lose anyway, this tactic is utterly useless.
That’d require progressives to have something resembling spine. Good fucking luck.
Dumb doomer attitudes like this and the rest constantly plastered all over Lemmy (always by the same handful of users I’ve noticed) certainly isn’t helping. “American” Lemmy is a small community, it’s a lot smaller when you take out the bad faith “memelords” incessantly both-sides-ing and advocating for non-participation.
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That’s why I support candidates, not parties.
certainly isn’t helping
Helping what? What do you want me to help?
PS: I’m not American.
Depends, do like fascist cock shoved down your country’s throat? Cuz I hate it. But if you don’t, just keep arguing for electing fascists like you currently are.
Well the other option is reforming the Republican Party. That seems harder.
I think progressives could easily run in Republican primaries and just start harping on labor and unions since no one else in that party does and tons of Union members vote Republican. What the worst that could happen? Collusion of the national party against the most popular left leaning or presidential candidate in the US, oh wait, the DNC already did that.
Not true. It can be reformed the same way the republican party was deformed. By gutting it from the inside out and replacing all the dead weight.
Yes. It can be taken over like the rnc was by maga. The mentality of this post makes progressives lose before they try. That is what capitalism really wants. For you to not try and accept the bullshit.
the dead weight is… most of it though. A lot of people just joined because it was the only alternative to republicans. And now its pretty much dead.
Let’s use that desperation to our advantage. People will be eager to accept a new direction
It may not be worth the effort to reform it, but claiming that it “can’t” be reformed is asinine. A political party is not some higher order being, timeless and unchanging, nor even one with a fundamental permanent set of core tenants that all else springs from. It’s a group of people with a bit of bureaucracy that influence and decide somewhat collectively on their shared goals. Of course that can change fundamentally.
In fact it has changed fundamentally in the not too distant past. Look at the Democratic party (and the Republican party) of the Jim Crow era compared to today. They essentially flipped to the other side of the political spectrum. It’s absolutely not easy to change a party fundamentally and not quick to do so, either. Old minds are not easily swayed with the times. The primary way to change party ideals is through new minds and perspectives joining the party and the old ones leaving it. Generational change is slow AF but it does definitely happen. Concerted effort for young people with new ideals to join the party is the best way to induce this change. Again though, that is a lot of effort and takes times. The bigger he ship, the harder to steer. There are alternatives, all of which also take a ton of effort, probably a lot more effort really, but might be faster if it works out.
Most people use “can’t” for things that are impractical, not just strictly impossible. But yes, let’s argue about phrasing rather than the issue. That ought to fix everything.
I don’t know why we keep having to have this talk about why reformism doesn’t work. Rosa Luxembourg addressed this pretty well.
We aren’t likely to get Reformations, the problems with the Democratic party are baked directly in to the institution.
Anything offered as Reformation is a token to ensure that the masses don’t revolt at least until the Reformation can be clawrd back by the powers that be.
Want to watch the Democrat party change?
Start primarying left and right.
It’ll change.
We’ve watched conservative voters change the Republican party to the traitor party they are today in less than 2 decades. It’s completely possible.
The Democrat Elites thought of that which is why they use super delegates which ensure that a candidate cannot be too radical.
Not only that the situation surrounding both parties is entirely different. People saw Donald Trump initially as a harmless moron. People in the DNC see radicals and progressives as an enemy to be contained
We aren’t likely to get Reformations, the problems with the Democratic party are baked directly in to the institution.
What’s the difference between the Democratic party and the United States of America in this regard? If the Democrats can’t be reformed, why can the USA be reformed? If the USA can’t be reformed, then what’s the point of this discussion?
Well theoretical the DNC is not baked directly into the government and continues its stranglehold by trying to kill all 3rdparty prospects pretty aggressively.
If a group was able to pull it off and build a completely new political party it could change the fabric of the government the same way MAGA is now however this is not Reformation. Its a soft power Revolution similar to what happened with Adelle in Chile.
I mean functional what’s occurring with the Trump administration is a soft power revolution.
The point of this discussion is to encourage people to put down the DNC in favor of other organizations like local ones that actually benefit the community by helping the impoverished or to look at other organizations like the DSA or PSL or FSRO which at least help encourage people to learn anarchist or Marxist theory which is significantly better at predicting and helping people navigate the political landscape then the neoliberal theory that lead us here in the first place.
Well theoretical the DNC is not baked directly into the government and continues its stranglehold by trying to kill all 3rdparty prospects pretty aggressively.
No, it’s not aggressive at all in trying to kill 3rd parties. That’s because 3rd parties aren’t a threat to power in this country. It uses 3rd parties as an excuse for their losses, and uses that to go after the left (something it does do aggressively).
Its a soft power Revolution similar to what happened with Adelle in Chile.
Chile is a parliamentary system with proportional representation, not a first past the post winner takes all system. Totally different animal.
I mean functional what’s occurring with the Trump administration is a soft power revolution.
Yes, executed through an inside strategy of taking over the Republican party. Imagine that.
The point of this discussion is to encourage people to put down the DNC in favor of other organizations like local ones that actually benefit the community by helping the impoverished or to look at other organizations like the DSA or PSL or FSRO
If that were the point of this discussion, it would seem like that might have been something to mention before now.
Yep because allowing the DNC to blame third parties certainly doesn’t create animosity towards third parties nor does it push the illusion that voting anything other than democrat or republican is handing the country over to your opponent.
Somebody doesn’t know about the Socialist Revolution in Chile in the 70s… or the role the United States played in ending that.
Pretending that parliamentary systems aren’t first past the vote is something else. They just happen to have a system where coalitions have a little more power. Definitely hasn’t helped in France or the United Kingdom where the two major political parties continue to consolidate power.
Yes the Republican Party allowed themselves to be taken over since they believe anything for power which Trump is more than happy to oblige.
As I said before the Republican party did not take Trump seriously until it was too late and did not attempt to remove power from him. Where as the Democratic party actively stamps out Progressive politicians and policies.
Regardless of how other people feel I’m using this as an opportunity to talk about how the Democrats have failed us at every level politically and are now enabling the fascists take over of the United States and that it’s time to abandon the Democrats and find a new party and a new type of political organization. Which is why I suggest talking to the DSA Or the psl or the FSRO.
Anything these guys teach you will be light years ahead of any political Theory you learn from a Democrat.
Problem is this - Dems are not a political party, they’re a fundraising organization.
I know you’re just being reductive, but that’s a silly statement. They are objectively a political party. They also fundraise. They’re not mutually exclusive.
The point is they measure success not by winning elections but by fundraising. “Harris couldn’t have been wrong, she raised record amounts, it must be the the voters or something”
Yup.
There are so many Americans that don’t grasp that this change can happen. Or understand the concept but outright refuse to have patience. And like you said, it’s A LOT less effort, a LOT less time, and WAY more possible to primary and change the Democrat party than to cross our fingers for a random 3rd party to start actually doing something and winning some elections and getting reps in the House and Senate.
I’ve been alive for a while. I watched conservative voters change the Republican party to the fascist traitor party it is today. You can absolutely change political parties.
