They’ve always been religious but like in the sane way. Now that the divorce is happening, they’ve gone full Evangelist style batshit lecturing about how sinful everyone’s lives are. What can I do?
Most people join cults for community and structure and answers. There’s resources like https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-mind/202104/the-definitive-guide-helping-people-trapped-in-cult and https://www.peopleleavecults.com/post/help-cult-involved but I think the general idea is stay calm don’t crash out when talking about it, help them notice the manipulation techniques being used that are common to cults, asking questions that help undermine indoctrination and inspire more skepticism, and provide alternatives for the reasons they are wanting to join or stay in a cult without the manipulation and lies a cult requires to exist.
- Divorce is a sin, so if they are trying to get hardcore religious and lecturing people, they need to handle their hypocrisy first.
- Get them more involved in their current religious organisation instead of the cults
Isn’t divorce only a sin for Catholics who don’t get it annulled? I thought divorce was more acceptable among Protestants
I’m assuming the more hardline you go, the harder the rules get.
My parents got divorced in 1981. My mom was raised Pentecostal (the Tammy Faye Bakker kind, not the long skirts kind), and she was intermittently ultra-involved in the church.
During one of those times (in the mid-'90s), she came to the understanding that she could never remarry because the only “biblically acceptable” reason for divorce was unfaithfulness. Since that wasn’t why she and my dad got divorced, dating anyone else would be considered adultery. So she swore off dating.
To be fair, I don’t know if this is something that came from the church or something she came up with on her own. I just remember thinking it was pretty ridiculous.
So whether it’s official church doctrine or not, I do think that the more extreme the church, the more extreme the rules are.
Yeah, that’s probably a fair assumption
So, technically, divorce isn’t the sin. Getting involved with another person, however, is adultery. You can divorce, and, if the other person isn’t Christian and divorces you, you can even remarry (Pauline Privlidge). Generally speaking, the Church advocates for seperation instead of divorce in cases such as abuse.
Divorce is a sin, so if they are trying to get hardcore religious and lecturing people, they need to handle their hypocrisy first.
Some religious cults will pressure divorced people to remarry their original spouse, regardless of the reason for the divorce.
Yes, divorce is often considered a sin. And…?
The great thing about Christianity is that sin is expected, anticipated and in some ways, even celebrated.
The forgiveness of sin is a foundational Christianity principle. IMHO, it’s also why that religions is so popular, especially evangelical Christianity.
Here’s the gist: Humans are evil beings, filled with sin, each and every one of us. You WILL end up sinning and at that point, you can ask forgiveness. If you are sincere, God will forgive you. YAY! The burden of guilt is now lifted and you can go about your day.
This is why Christians can do horrible things and then walk away unphased. They have a get of jail free card. When/if they start to feel guilty about their deeds, they just ask forgiveness.
I’m not being flippant - this process satisfies a deep psychological need that many people seem to have. They want to be a good, empathetic person - but they are greedy and selfish and jealous, just like the rest of us. The Christian religion taps into this common trait and leverages it to the absolute max.
Ex-cult member here.
The only thing that snaps someone out of that spiral is an internal realization. There’s nothing we as outsiders can really do directly. Engaging with their version of reality (Christian evangelicals specifically) feeds into the prosecution complex and perpetual victimhood that validates their position. It’s a self-defeating tactic to confront them directly.
Focus on positive, normal, consistent interactions. Share your regular, everyday triumphs. If your lifestyle comes up in conversation, express being satisfied with it. Decline going to church with them. Don’t debate their stances on doctrine if you share a root faith. Deflect and redirect. When the opportunity arises, maybe ask a question that invites some introspection about the subtle (but structurally loadbearing) flaws in their worldview. But don’t probe too much. Again, bear in mind, they’re trained to take every perceived attack as a trigger to rehearse their dogma. Be subtle.
And above all, unless they are actively abusing you, don’t abandon them. That’ll seal them in and you’ll never get them back. Continue your hobbies and appointments, and keep a schedule (movie night, for example.) Eventually, they might feel vulnerable enough to express their insecurities about inconsistencies in their worldview. Be gentle with them, as this is a remarkably scary thing for them to even voice out loud.
If they love you–and I mean really love you–no preacher with an ego to preen will ever take them from you.
Encourage them to seek therapy instead?
Tried that, they don’t like therapists because they don’t think any therapist could ever “understand them like God can”
When I was looking at potential therapists, there were more than a few that slapped their Christian beliefs right there on their website and made it a point to state that they integrate their faith into their therapy, so there are probably options like that available to them.
I’ll look into this, thanks!
Look for a Christian therapist. Also talk to a preacher/priest about making a bible-based arguement for seeing a therapist. Something-something Parable of the Talents.
Agreed. And try to frame it as an addition to their church support not a replacement.
Well, considering they’re leaning into the evangelical bullshit… I don’t know that i concur with the last bit.
They’ve always been religious but like in the sane way.
Yes, people can be that
It doesn’t seem to be the case for op’s parent.
It does seem that they’ve always “been” religious in a sane manner. They aren’t anymore. OP would know.
Telling them that they should’ve addressed this sooner isn’t helpful to OP right now.
Ex charismatic case here:
As others have pointed out=> they have to figure it out, you can only help and wait it out.
They preach it themselves, be patient, show your life and wait. Same goes the other way.
The difference is that they are in a trap so to speak. They can’t back out because that triggers the fear of hell (it’s a one way street).
If they make it out it’ll probably be because their god has let them down for the millionth time on important issues. Be there for them in those moments and show them that life goes on outside of their bubble. And that life is good there. They’re in for a dark ride.
If it comes down to debating the matter: be careful. A good gotcha can feel like a small victory but it can also cut you out of their life. Or only embolden them to look up more fringe and whacky theories.
From my experience it’s probably more effective to dismiss such debates. Show them you care about them as a person and not their religion.
I dearly dearly wish you all the strength and love you can use. I hope they make it out.
Unfortunately, as a child, you can’t do anything else than getting the fuck out of there as soon as possible. If you have lil’ bros and sis’, you have to take them with you, else they’ll destroy their minds as well.
Save yourselves.
Convert to Islam
No - convert to Catholicism, agree with mom everyone is so sinful these days, and maybe she should pray 67 Hail Mary’s and help the poor directly via charity for the rest of her life to stone for the sin of divorce.
Gotta out crazy the crazy, not match it.
sounds like they are projecting, thier divorce has to be against thier religion, taboo pretty hypocritical.
Move out, change you phone number. Check in on them occasionally, maintain your distance until you’re comfortable. Neither of you owe automatic allegiance unless you choose to.
It’s their parent’s, OP is worried about them and you’re telling OP to abandon them?
They’re not OPs responsibility, nor should OP feel obligated to be traumatized by them.
One of my core values is that people get to decide for themselves what to believe. And it sounds a whole lot like you’re disrespecting your parent’s agency.
Imagine the thread: My son is talking like an atheist, how do I make them change?
I’d gladly take them to church if that was all it was. But aside from wanting me to attend they bring the sermon into every conversation to the point where we can barely talk anymore. I’ve suggested seeking support even at the church if they don’t want a therapist, but they’d rather just lecture about the sinfulness of watching TV or how they regret not forcing me to attend church every week. I thought religion is a personal relationship with the deity in question? Why drag in people who don’t want to be involved in it?
That’s kind of what people finding new meanings on life are like. Is there a power dynamic with your parent where they can still affect your quality of life? If not you can still be supportive of their journey while not letting them curmudgeon you with guilt. Not every Christian has to use their ideology to kill their empathy, though that’s usually what disenfranchised new converts are trying to do.
Either way, based on these statements they’re obviously too far into it for one person to pull them out. At that point the challenge is more getting them to still recognize your agency and personhood. Draw the boundaries where their faith ends and your life starts.
“Is there a power dynamic with your parent where they can still affect your quality of life?” In short, yes - enough that the guilt is already there. I’m not trying to change their religious beliefs or anything, but they’ve never reached the “you’ll burn in hell for [insert anything here really]” stage before. That’s supposed to be like a red flag right?
Yeah that’s pretty hateful. There’s something underlying there that Christianity is accelerating. Somebody else suggested gaining some distance and that sounded extreme but maybe that’s not such a bad idea. You don’t want to be dependent on a Christian who is in a mental health spiral
So…is this about how her religious beliefs are affecting HER life?
Or is it more about how her religious beliefs are affecting your relationship with her?
It’s the 2nd one, I’m not trying to take away her source of spiritual relief or anything - but to make it really simple, it’s no longer “I love God and live by his teachings” but unprompted “You’ll burn in hell for not loving God, you believe in nothing and God will make you pay” kind of lectures for like 2 hours. Surely that’s cause for concern considering I have to talk to her everyday?
If the relationship is worth salvaging, you can meet her halfway. It will take a LOT of work on your part. A lot of compromise. You’ll probably end up feeling suffocated and you’ll probably lie to her a lot, to make her feel better.
“Mom, I want to do better by you. I want you to be proud of me. I’m not saying I believe everything in the Bible, but I want to ask you some things. About sin and God. I’m not promising to change, but I promise to keep an open mind.”
Something like that. Then, for topic, ask her to describe a situation where she felt sinful, and exactly what she did to avoid it.
Basically, you are putting her in a position to be a mentor but ONLY if she shows vulnerability and shares with you her weaknesses. This changes the dynamic of your relationship, puts you on equal footing. Now she is a sinner too.
Most likely, if she takes the bait, she will tell you about a very small sin. “Oh, I wanted to slap that cashier, but I prayed and God took all the violence away from me.”
Start picking away, theologically speaking. “So…did you actually sin? Is just thinking about something a sin? Is that really the worst thought you’ve ever had? Have you ever actually sinned, like in real life?” Make it seem like you understand nothing about how sin really works. Encourage her to give personal examples.
Of course, the conversation might go a totally different direction. Just take it where it goes. Never escalate, always treat her with respect when talking about religion. At any point, when you’ve hit a brick wall, just stop.
Wait for her to finish talking. Look thoughtful. Meet her eyes. Open your mouth to speak and then close it. Pause again. Then say “I need to think about that. And maybe read…” Walk out of the room. Pop your head back in. Say “Thank you Mom, for taking me seriously.”
It’s worth noting that I moved out of my parents’ house as soon as I graduated high school to get away from bullshit like this. In the long run, I might have been happier to find a compromise and learn to live with my mom’s nut beliefs and self-righteousness. Best of luck!
I think you have your last sentence wrong:
My son is talking like a militant atheist, how do I make them change?
To contrast with the assumptions in your comment: I’m agnostic and I dislike talking to my atheist brother but quite enjoy talking to my christian family, excluding that stage when a few were born again and wanted to save you too.
The request is for managing the way someone in their life is pushing their beliefs. You’re focusing on the tangential context, the persons specific beliefs (that was added as useful context for the people offering helpful ideas)
I agree with your point that people should get to decide for themselves. But not if their beliefs are hurting others. Historically, religion has done more harm than good.
They may get to decide themselves. Just like OP is free to believe they are foolish to believe what they believe and say so. Your believes aren’t sacred, just like mine aren’t.
People could and do try to make atheists change, however delusions without basis are hard to instill in rational people.
You don’t. If their mind is already primed to fall for this nonsense, there isn’t much you can do to help them.
Personally, I think your parents should be allowed to make their own decision about what religion and/or spirituality they want to adopt.
The reason they’re gravitating toward the religion is likely because the divorce has left them with an emotional hole. They’re finding love and compassion in the message of the religion, and probably some more compassion and companionship from fellow members of the religion.
While the message from the leaders may well be a ruse to hook people and get their money, the perceived benefits and actual fellowship are going to be hard for you to compete with. Especially so if you’re approaching it from the “all of you are batshit crazy” angle.
I think if you really want to help your parent, the best option would be to find a way to provide them even more love, compassion, and companionship than the church gives them. Then they might consider listening to your opinions on organized religion at some point later down the line after they’ve had time to heal from the emotional trauma that comes with divorce. This may also be a good strategy to help yourself if you’re feeling affected by the change too.
give arguments for why you believe Jesus was a homosexual
Spirituality is healthy when it isn’t exclusionary. Unfortunately it too often manifests as ancient dos and don’ts, haves and have nots.
Dont quote scripture at them. Approaching an emotional challenge with a logical solution is never well received. The other side just assumes you don’t understand what they’re going through. This isn’t a debate for one side to win. This is a (midlife) crisis of meaning and one’s sense of morality or righteousness. Perhaps they feel the divorce was not in line with their religious beliefs and looking out for faults in others is how they’re trying to find peace.
They’re probably looking for some form of healing from a broken relationship they’ve both heavily invested in, and finding fault in others gives them a momentary vindication, the ability to say “see, I’m not that bad”.
It what context are they lecturing? Is it due to people they’re directly interacting with or social media?
I can tell they want emotional support through all this and usually that’s really easy to help them through because all I need to do is sit and listen to them go through the grief while giving input if they ask and stuff but when they suddenly lurch into the Repent Session it’s like a completely different conversation is happening.
Any interaction, real-life or social media could trigger it. Like if they see a testimony of someone’s divorce story on tiktok, or if they got bad service at a restaurant, and especially when dealing with the legal process and settlement. And most of all when the televangelists are on TV or social media.
[Edit: There was an anecdote here but I feel like that might be over sharing, removed it]
You may want to deflect with a simple “I’m not going to judge someone for doing their best” or something similar
