I absolutely care about historical accuracy! That’s why that show depicting Rome in all white is so fucking dumb. It was a Mediterranean Empire, for fuck’s sake! It had people from all around the Mediterranean, even in the upper echelons. For instance, there were emperors from the Balkan and modern central Turkey.
But anyway, what matters more to me than the ethnicity or appearance of the characters is the faithful representation of social and political structures or technological restrictions. Race can play a part in this, but it’s hardly the only part and rarely the most important. Wealth, while often correlated with race, is generally the more significant factor.
For example: Arrows piercing plate like so much paper understates the power advantage between those who could afford proper protection and those who had to make do with textile armor. I don’t care if the guy inside that cuirass is white, black, green with purple dots or actually not a guy: an arrow slowed by friction hitting a sloped steel sheet at an angle is gonna slide off. I’d rather see an Asian female knight stride into battle with confidence and terrify lightly armoured peasants than have a male knight shot through the chestplate.
Ofc, they’re all white. Have you seen their marble busts? They’d choose black marble if they were black
Beat me to it.
From the Balkan? Really? Man you’re not going to believe when I tell you the meaning of the word Caucasian.
From the Balkan? Really?
Maximinus Thrax was named after his origin in Thracia, which would have included the European part of modern-day Turkey along with parts of Bulgaria and Eastern Greece. There were other Thraco-Roman emperors as well, I just picked one arbitrarily. My main point was “not white”.
Man you’re not going to believe when I tell you the meaning of the word Caucasian.
Go right ahead! I’m interested in the point you’re looking to make. And if your point is also “not white”, be sure to also address it to all the people whose Italy is filled with Brits that make milk look tan.
My point is that, if you’re trying to say that someone from the Balkans is not white you’re just wrong.
Balkan is a region from the Caucasus so they are more Caucasian than any of the white/Caucasian from the USA today.
My point is that, if you’re trying to say that someone from the Balkans is not white you’re just wrong
They’re not British-white is my point, but I probably should have said so explicitly. I assumed that a reader would be familiar with the phenomenon of shows about Rome being cast predominantly British, but in hindsight, that’s a bold assumption to make.
Balkan is a region from the Caucasus
Wat
I mean, they’re both bordering the Black Sea, if that’s what you mean, but the Balkan is on the west side while the Caucasus is on the east. Unless you’re working off some other definition I don’t know of?
so they are more Caucasian than any of the white/Caucasian from the USA today.
So today’s US and UK actors not the same “white” as the Caucasians in antiquity? Even if we extended that to the Balkans, that just underlines my point. I’m not looking to argue about specific terms for specific ethnic backgrounds here.
I’m talking about the fact that, by and large, historical Romans don’t actually fit the way TV shows the last few decades tended to portray them. I picked two decidedly non-“modern British white” emperors as examples of prominent non-mBw Romans.
If you want more examples, Septimus Severus was of Punic (originally Phoenician / Semitic people who settled in northern Africa) descent, born in modern-day Libya, which I’m fairly confident we all agree is not Caucasian, nor white, and most certainly not mBw. He is visible in this family portrait (although one of his sons was condemned by the other, which is probably why that face has been erased):
Does that look white to you, by whatever definition you would like to apply?
Ok. So
English --> Caucasian Balkan – > not Caucasian, not close enough.
And that’s not a joke.
I just consider very funny that the people from the region that gives name to the Caucasian “race” are not considered white enough to be considered Caucasian.
BTW this is a just a problem in the USA. The only time in my life a had to catalogue myself in a race tag was when I traveled to the USA. And it’s very stupid because I’m Spanish but I couldn’t tag myself as latin, they say I must use Caucasian.
Like I said, this is a thing only in the USA. Nobody cares about the “races” they invented.
I’m not from the US, maybe that’s why I don’t deal much with the names people give to “races”. The only case particularly relevant to me is that of a certain megalomaniac getting people riled up about the “Aryan” race which I’m sure we both agree was also quite nonsensical.
English --> Caucasian Balkan – > not Caucasian, not close enough.
I mean, if we’re going by geography, Balkan would be closer to the Caucasus than either of them to England. I couldn’t tell you how any given ethnic people moved, spread and intermingled over the centuries, but as you say, it’s not really relevant outside the US.
I just consider very funny that the people from the region that gives name to the Caucasian “race” are not considered white enough to be considered Caucasian.
That’s partially why I avoid the use of that term. The rest of it is that it just isn’t a useful term since it…
And it’s very stupid because I’m Spanish but I couldn’t tag myself as latin, they say I must use Caucasian.
…is so broadly used that it no longer refers to any distinct ethnic, geographic or cultural group. It’s just a shorthand for the stereotypes and biases people attach to it.
Of course, the whole point of sorting people into races is racism, but we knew that already.
Granted, I was being imprecise, but my point was that many UK and US shows and movies scarcely cast actors from the Mediterranean or the various other former Roman provinces that would also have wealthy elites who would have to be involved in public matters as any other Roman citizen was expected to. Because that’s what most influences whether you’ll make it high in the Cursus Honorum: having the money to make friends.
Instead, they primarily cast “makes milk look tan” Brits, particularly for their elites. When the Senate of a Mediterranean Empire looks like they only ever hold public speeches or leave the house for any other social function when it’s overcast, that does irritate me.
What show?
I’m exaggerating a little for comedic effect, but the Senate is definitely not representative of a Mediterranean Empire.
(Don’t get me wrong, I’m not shitting on the show itself, just that casting decision)
Haha that’s a good point.
Poor Elon Musk. The casting choices on The Odyssey have deeply affected his big, sensitive heart. But you wouldn’t know it, due to his mature stoicism.
I mean, you expect he’d tweet up a storm, post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post over several days, making him look like some sort of whiny, tantrum-throwing white supremacist.
But, no. The control that selfless Titan of Industry has over his emotions is inspiring!
this like every conservative, they call these things woke, they dont really care about the historical accuracy of it.
There’s always been race swapping in films. Just look at John Wayne portraying Genghis Khan.
It’s totally fine when white people do it. /s
I believe there was also a shitstorm when the chick in Ghost in the shell was chosen to be white (instead of Asian), and similar with Avatar the Last Airbender?
Maybe we should ask Mongolians how they felt about John Wayne portraying Genghis Khan.
Just look at John Wayne portraying Genghis Khan.
Or Ricardo Montalban playing Khan Noonien Singh!
I don’t care about the race of the actor 99% of the time until they race swap a character just for the sake of inclusiveness.
If you wanna be inclusive then make a new character of that race.
Or maybe don’t pick characters that three minutes of thought would reveal massive problems with swapping them.
How would you even know if they were the one who casted auditioned best anyway?
Dismissing any black person for a role because if they happen to get cast its just for inclusiveness is just racist
Hey I’m all for recasting anyone into any role, but it’s suspicious when they seem to keep doing it with gingers… Are the writers all dyslexic racists?
Obligatory Tim Minchin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVN_0qvuhhw
Or use some of the existing characters of that race. Where tf is Static at, DC?
Underrated but not forgotten.
I always tell people like this that jesus was a short brown skinned jewish man and I take offense to white people portraying him in video and people portraying him as white in paintings too and I swear they would shoot me on the spot if we u.s. losers but we are canadian losers.
we are canadian
lhosers.I read that as
“Jesus was a short, brown, skinned, jewish man”
I was right flummoxed for a moment there.
Some people don’t want to let anyone else tell a story.
And sometimes its just racism.
Any actor should be able to play any role regardless of race or gender. Anything else is systemic discrimination.
“You can’t play shakespeare because you’re black!” screams the basement dwelling internet troll at the kenyan shakespeare society.
I don’t agree.
In most modern movies it doesn’t matter because they are full of random stuff anyway. Multiverses, magic, history that never happened, and so on.
But if they were to make a movie about an african tribe of the 1800s based on real events I wouldn’t be able to take that movie seriously if half or all of them had pinkish-beige skin or any too obviously genetically impossible traits for the geological area and time the movie plays in.
Immersion sometimes also means accuracy.
Any knee-jerk blanket statements like yours are bad. Not as bad as the racist people who just want to find dumb reasons to exclude actors with skin colors darker than theirs, but still just not very smart.
Which is true for many here.
People really need to find the sweet spots between extremes, sheesh.
So in that case, Americans can only play Americans, Brits can only play Brits etc.
It’s noticeable how this week’s russian psyop style Hollywood furore is over a black actress playing a fictional greek character not Americans and Brits playing fictional greek characters
People like you are the reason why I specifically chose the words: “Any too obviously genetically impossible traits”
Americans and brits do not look clearly different. Similar enough.
But you must have skipped that part of what I wrote or have just jumped to a knee-jerk answer after the first words?
Also: americans are a nation of immigrants. Except the few native Americans, so they can be realistically be played by a wild mix.
Americans have giant chins
The Clinton Lewinsky chin
Top 10 countries of origin for non native Americans which are like 99% of America today:
Top ten countries of origin for Americans (non-native)
- Germany ~14% 4–7 generations ago
- Africa (Sub-S) ~12% 8–15 generations ago (enslaved)
- Mexico ~11% 1–5 generations ago
- Ireland ~10% 4–7 generations ago
- England ~8% 8–15 generations ago
- Italy ~5.5% 4–5 generations ago
- Poland ~3% 4–5 generations ago
- France ~2.6% 6–14 generations ago
- Scotland ~1.9% 5–10 generations ago
- Norway ~1.4% 4–7 generations ago
(1 generation ≈ 25 years. Based on US Census self-reported ancestry.)
Those meager few generations don’t do anything for defining a specific look. Americans are genetically just everything thrown together while pretending to be “established”.
And these are just top ten. Look at how many percent are still open to be filled with a large number of small percentage origins…
Well, movies based on comics are inherently also tied to a very visual canon. And, arguably, their whole point is putting those exact visuals on the big screen (for an audience that grew up reading the comics and now has money).
The way to get that right is to make characters and stories that look and feel exactly like the comics, but more and better. Only good change is when you fix something that was broken or janky.
Arguably the ww2 era worldviews and gender and US biases are good targets to fix, of course. But changing the visuals starkly will still be an obvious mistake. Especially when there’s actually nearly 100 years worth of stories and characters to pick and mix from and no reason you can’t add more.
Don’t break the fucking canon! And that includes the visuals.
Yea, that I can agree on too.
Changing established characters from something people already identify with breaks that connection and result in anger for obvious reasons.
So from ur PoV, it would also then be fine if for example a white actor would play MLK in a movie about him?
He would just be a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude.
Dudeception
I won’t be happy until a big Nigerian woman plays Sir Winston Churchill
The difference is that MLK is a real person whose appearance we know.
Helen is a fictional myth. Go find a real depiction of her appearance (not a stylized one, as in art, which is an interpretation).
In principle I agree>!!<, but in practice it’s not clear cut.
The main one is some historic accuracy, I say some because the color of the skin doesn’t really matter for most things set in some time period or era where a race wasn’t particularly present.
The second one is just how it looks, we’ll see how well casting Snape for the new Harry Potter goes as it seems to be Harry’s father is bullying the weird black kid. Another one is the Artemis Fowl movie which cases a woman as leader for the Fairy unit, which undermines the actual accomplishment of Holly being the first to get here place as a woman. It’s not the end of the world, but it changes the tone and plot.
Probably not the end of the world, but these problems fall on the same line as other poor adaption/remake choices that actively hurt the story is try to tell. Not everyone can fit into a role in a story, and I don’t think that’s systematic discrimination. And I reiterate, it largely depends on the setting of the story. For most things, gener and race is not a big factor.
I see a lot of criticism of Western media which in my opinion is rooted in misogyny and racism. And it’s not even honest criticism it’s divisive culture war bullshit. Of course ragebait drives traffic but it’s reached a point where hate watching is a thing now, which is just sad.
You’re implying that the next Black Panther could be played by Tom Cruise. I’m not sure I’d be happy about that.
I was thinking vanilla ice
But yeah
deleted by creator
snoke him
You know what we call people whose job is to pretend to be other people they are not? Actors.
Look, I just want historical accuracy in my movie about sea monsters and cyclopses!
As we all know, despite part of the story taking place in Africa, there were no black people in ancient Greece!
It’s even better when they want “historical accuracy” in a fictional world that’s based on medieval times.
Bridgerton probably gives these people seizures
John Wayne as Genghis Khan!
:The sound of a thousand dicks ripping when the single African character was found in Kingdom Come Deliverance 2 :
BlaCk pEopLe neVEr wEnt tO EurOPe iN The MiDdlE AgEs!
I’m surprised they even had one given how controversial the devs were the first time.
If there’s ever a Hollywood Adaptation of Hamilton, I hope that Lin keeps to his casting choices as reflecting modern America, not 1776 America.
The Conservatives would lose their mind. But I also couldn’t imagine a white guy playing Hercules Mulligan. Certainly not singing Yorktown.
Actually probably most of the original cast would be in it, anyway. Sort of like In The Heights, except hopefully reprising their own original roles.
Certainly wouldn’t be a sung-through musical though. Hollywood would need to split it into two, with extra “world-building” and dialogue, like they did with Wicked.
Dont forget about the whitewashing too.
US christians would lose their minds if you got a middle-eastern to play that one specific person.
Like the Prince of checks notes Persia?
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