- cross-posted to:
- fuck_ai@lemmy.world
- programmer_humor@programming.dev
- cross-posted to:
- fuck_ai@lemmy.world
- programmer_humor@programming.dev
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Coincidentally, OOP just explained academic publishing to a T.
A parasite can take different shapes but only one form.
Sort of. Unless you go to a private university taxes go to the public schools to fun facilities and wages for the educators. While you may pay tuition, the overall cost of that education and the services needed for one to do research doesn’t come wholely out of your pocket.
Now I agree you should be compensated more, as someone who tried to get published academically and has filed patents I can see why there is a split of compensation.
Wdym? Scientists usually don’t get paid to publish. The person you replied to, probably meant academic publishing as in:
- Scientist does research and compiles manuscript, usually via public money, even in shithole countries like the US
- Scientist submits manuscript to for profit journal
- Journal outsources proofreading to other scientists, who do it for free
- Manuscript is accepted or revised on scientists time and money
- Scientist pays for publishing
- For Profit journal either charges extra for “open” publication or charges scientist and other scientists for access, usually by agreements with the respective library
- Profit! (On the journals part)
Where is the split of compensation? For patents there is, but for academic publishing usually not.
You also forgot how scientist is required to publish regularly to keep their job, and to find new jobs. So this process is far from optional.
That aside, that was an excellent write up. You should publish that to a journal or something. 😏
Thanks for the peer review!
I feel very educated from having all read this.
You are missing the point, it’s not about education, but publishing. Read about Elsevier, and how Aaron Swartz died
clenches fist
That is how capitalism works.
The American Weather Service provided weather updates for free, but a company came along and just started copying what the weather service posted … then sued the Weather Service for publicly posting the weather because the government is not allowed to provide a service for free that a company can charge for.
Insanity.
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In case anyone didn’t know the answer is business as in business has the government by the balls.
As intended by the founding fathers, of course
That’s exactly right, and it’s clearly why they intentionally decided to let the businesses have guns and gave them all the other rights in the constitution, knowing they would someday be declared to be actual “people” by a series of what must be the stupidest and most destructive legal precedents ever set in the history of humanity.
Yup. Government has businesses by the balls.
But corruption exists.
Therefore the goverment only ever really pulls small businesses and normal people by the balls, while the big businesses and uber rich (money heavyweights) get to pull the government by the tongue. Sometimes even the balls as well.
Just as Supply Side Jesus intended.
Yup. Government has businesses by the balls.
I don’t think that they do anymore. Not in the US.
The opposite is true here.
State governments issue business licenses. This is how we will kill Citizen’s United.
Hawaii first, Montana next.
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Same thing happened in Germany where the DWD collects and publishes weather data. Wetter.de came along and sued them, forcing them to hide features in their app (developed and paid for by tax money) behind a paywall. That was later overturned, but I still refuse to use their site
Yes! Exact same here. Its so dumb it sounds made up. A random company comes along and just gets to sell what was once free.
the government is not allowed to provide a service for free that a company can charge for
I am beyond mildly infuriated by such an idiotic stance, but it tracks with what I’ve seen.
RIP postal service you’re next.
…Seriously?
This guy has no leg to stand on; that’s the Mildly Infuriating part.
EDIT: Am I the only one on Lemmy who discounts the whole post the moment I see a blue checkmark?
Especially this one. It’s so hypocritical it hurts.
I think other people can buy the blue checkmark for you on twitter, though my information may be faulty.
In any case, just cause he gave money to that ass wipe Elon doesn’t mean that his analogy isn’t valid, just a little “leopards ate my face” kinda deal.
Well, he tweets many times a day, many posts like this:
…Seems like a “Tech Bro” type to me. He’s just engagement farming; I don’t care what he says, there nothing valid about that.
In fact, I’d wager some of those posts are automated.
I’m kind of with you on this, but even broken clocks
Yeah but I don’t pay attention to broken clocks. I throw them out and replace them with working ones.
Yeah okay, fair enough, he looks like a moron.
I think twitter also might still give blue check marks to “important” people it’s just available for anyone to buy now
Don’t discount the message though. After all we’re interacting with a screenshot of a tweet. It doesn’t make me a fan of this guy.
The messenger matters.
Would you care about anything I was saying if I was a bot?
Or a Musk/Theil bootlicker?
Especially on this topic. Nodding heads about the loss of the internet to engagement chum on Twitter is the opposite of poetic.
Steal the idea. Paraphrase it and screenshot it as your own! Victorii /s
…Also how capitalism works, according to another post here.
lol
Remember when the “verified” checkmark meant you were verified to be who you claim to be? I do
I’m surprised that nobody else has mentioned how far off the 20 year estimate is.
You either do it, or someone else will do it and start impersonating you. People with any kind of public/online presence sorta have to unfortunately.
they can still impersonate you. the checkmark has lost its meaning when everybody has it.
Not to mention those same companies obsessed with AI are the ones who run the search engines. They made finding all those tutorials and other good resources harder. They ruin search results with ads and easily gamed algorithms that they stopped trying to improve. All that made people more willing to let the AI find the answer.
It all makes sense when you realize that AI isn’t the product, control is.
When everyone depends on cloud services, especially storage, because they can’t afford hard drives or RAM anymore. Do you think the average normie is going to “stand up for principles of privacy and freedom of computing” or are they gonna say “it is what it is” and buy a tablet with 8GB of RAM and an office suite in the cloud?
Do you think these companies are above scanning everyone’s stuff to find out who is against them? Who is developing some great new idea? Who dissents the government?
Do you think these companies are above editing all saved copies of a news article and replacing it with something AI generated that looks real enough to memory hole something? (Copies of things in the cloud are already de-duplicated)
They don’t want us to be able to point out their flaws anymore. They want us to be submissive to them.
They’ve already broadcast their intentions to push cloud compute for home use. These data centers train AI - but chips are improving rapidly. Amazon and others have already stated they plan to use these for cloud compute services as they become obsolete for bleeding edge AI. Microsoft has a low local resource client to cloud version of Windows they are releasing. They want all compute to be subscription based and it will definitely lack any real privacy protections as long as they can keep corporate capture of congress.
that sounds a bit too distopian, maybe in some 20 years but reakly at this point anything can happen.
Where have you been the last 20 years?
I would say at least 5 years for all of these things to be plausible, the world changes fast but like social media collaborating with every goverment to silence people against any of the 2 or even give them repercussions still has some years left to (if it is gonna) happen. Besides organizing with news companies and then replacing all news articles would take at least some months (besides from it being super noticeable and there being archives in other places).
I have indeed noticed Google (and Google-based search engines like Startpage) has got worse in the past months. Even DuckDuckGo is better now (which as a long time ddg user is wild)
Honestly ddg has also gotten worse (as it’s bing in a condom), it’s just that Google has shit itself even harder
Kagi is a paid service and feels weird to pay for a search engine, but things have felt so much better since I tried them out months ago.
I don’t know if you use their Assistant, but you can limit it to specific sources. The first option after the entire web is the fediverse. They also have the small web, which just shows you things made by actual humans, not something trying to sell you something.
I pay for Metager and i do really recommend it. You pay a pittance per search while being free of the crap that infests the net. Kagi comes with it’s own set of issues.
I’ll look into Metager as this is the first I’ve heard of it.
What set of issues do you see with Kagi? It’s the best I’ve encountered as of late, but if there’s more I should consider; I’d like to learn.
I mainly find their CEO problematic, and their focus on AI does not bode well for the future.
Thank you for sharing. I do now recall a couple of the items you addressed, and I’ll have to keep others in mind.
We can’t have anything nice… google, digg, Reddit, github, Kagi, proton mail. —at one point in time these were good. The rot or trajectory of rot seems inevitable.
I’m not anti AI, but it doesn’t need to be in everything all the time. It shouldn’t obfuscate data sources. It shouldn’t be allowed to consume and gather everything breaking laws that would apply to any individual and ought to be enforced for any corporate entity.
Pointing an AI at a larger company’s documentation or feeding a local one a largish manual and using it to figure out how or why 2, 3, or 4 parts work together has been useful for me in the past. Again where I can then get to the data to learn for myself.
Letting the pattern recognization machine (AI) assess a logfile or 3 that are intertwined to help find issues has been helpful.
Injecting it into every internet search where I never asked is wasteful and stupid.
I started noticing ddg search with the “” operator is wonky. Also ecosia seems to have a lot of sponsored results?
To be fair, Google has been fighting a war against SEO and spam basically since it was started.
I don’t think they intentionally degraded their search engine. I think they just diverted resources away from fighting spam and SEO and instead dedicated those resources to AI stuff. Intentionally degrading their search results would require work. They’d have to convince their high-paid employees that for some reason they should make the results worse. But, just letting the stuff rot naturally as SEOs kept up their attacks, that’s free.
I’m at a point where I gladly pay for my search engine just to get good results.
One could argue we were always paying, with our data. But now we get less in return.
Welcome to the world of scientific publishing, long before AI. Except authors even have to pay for creating “content”, and reviewers are expected to work for free. Yet article access is sold at astronomical prices.
Hey, remember that time Aaron Swartz used public APIs and perfectly legal aggregation of information to compile scientific journals in a data set outside the paywall. And he was arrested, prosecuted, and threatened with life in prison until he (allegedly) killed himself?
Then his original and highly lucrative pet project, Reddit, was mutated into a propaganda factory by the Epstein Class, cannibalized by the Investor Class, and gutted for AI slop by the Tech Sector?
At least, academic papers give credits to the author… Or to the author’s boss
I don’t even know why they charge such high prices.
I don’t work in academia but I am curious about thing and look up papers all the time.
I have never bought a single one at those ridiculous prices. But if they were reasonable like $1-$3 or something I probably would have an di imagine a lot of people would have.
You make more if 100 people buy a $1 item than 3 people buying a $30 item and the world benefits more.
Because they can. It really is just a cartell. Especially institutions pay a fortune for bundled access.
I’m just waiting for some RTO’d workers to be told they’re being mass laid off, and instead they just beat the manager to death. The irony of it only being possible because they were forced back into the office will be delicious.
Have them kill the CEOs and Boards of Directors, and I will bring the popcorn.
I’m shocked it hasn’t happened yet. It’s kind of disheartening tbh
Once you understand that AI is limited to the questioner’s ability to properly elucidate what they need to know you’ll have several more botched concrete stair resurfacings.
Thanks Gemini, you self-contradicting potato
Gemini: “yes, an important distinction - you have made the critical observation that I am useless!”
“- Or not, I am not a lawyer, what do I know.”
~(This answer was generated by 10000 liters of fresh water and the energy equivalent of a quarter nuclear power plant)~
20 years? More like somewhere between 30 to 40 if we count early WWW and the Gopher+Usenet that came before it. The GPL isn’t quite that old, but the spirit behind it sure is. If we count early home-computer clubs back in the 70’s (like the one that birthed the original Apple) or the ham-radio crowd that came before it, we can push into 50+ year territory, easy.
I hadn’t considered AI being a paywall around the whole WWW but now that you mention it, it kind of looks that way. I’ve opined elsewhere that social media companies (e.g. Facebook) are building walled-gardens to keep eyeballs and attention-spans locked on their brand of reality. This would just be another avenue of attack in that strategy.
I remember frequenting MOOs and IRC, and downloading guitar tabs and chords off OLGA using clients in DOS back in the early 90s. Over 30 years ago. The Internet today is unrecognizable by comparison.
The library is still there. Admission is still free.
while the library itself is covered in a thick layer of slop as the librarian can’t keep up anymore and the road signs pointing at the library are taken down
the library was run on donations and someone copied all the books and is selling a service that summarizes them on a lot right in front of it. you can still go around and give your donation inside but most people don’t and the library is starting to fall apart. also the summaries kind of suck.
it’s called a walled garden for a reason.
They are also trying to take away these free resources by pushing laws to make ID identification mandatory to make money off of us.
Finally someone said it. I honestly was wondering why no one was complaining about this… I’ve worked on some open source myself, licensed it GPL, and never intended for it to be used as training data.
Doesn’t the GPL cover shit like this? There should be mass lawsuits hitting any AI that used open source software and didn’t just specifically use BSD projects or something.
If you train an LLM on GPL code, it should be illegal to sell that LLM and use it commercially without revealing ALL THE SOURCE you used and the source to regenerate that model.
If you train an LLM on GPL code, it should be illegal to sell that LLM and use it commercially without revealing ALL THE SOURCE you used and the source to regenerate that model.
Also if that LLM is used to generate code - that code must also be GPL.
I’d love to see lawsuits force Microsoft and Nvidia and OpenAI to open source everything they had AI touch 😁
Yeah I mean they train ai on commercially copyrighted stuff like books that they straight up pirate so if that doesn’t stop them the open source community certainly won’t
Doesn’t the GPL cover shit like this? There should be mass lawsuits
I hope it’ll happen eventually.
Currently the USA (and that’s where most of this shit comes from) is aggressively pro AI to the point of breaking the law with government support.
BTW what OP says has happened to Linux (at large) through Google/Android, too. The GPL hasn’t stopped them but surely put some limits on their exploitation of FOSS
never intended for it to be used as training data.
You could have chosen a different license than the GPL.
Doesn’t the GPL cover shit like this?
No. Didn’t you read the license you used?
GPL absolutely should cover shit like this. Training an LLM on your code makes it definitionally a derivative work, therefore it must be licensed under GPL too (with limited fair use exceptions which shouldn’t apply here). The problem is that the US government is not willing to enforce this at all, because it is owned by the same billionaires as the AI companies.
Training an LLM on your code makes it definitionally a derivative work
If so, then every painter who studied Picasso is making Picasso-derived works. That’s not how copyright works.
The problem is that the US government is not willing to enforce this at all, because it is owned by the same billionaires as the AI companies.
That’d be an uphill battle, even prominent OSS projects would fight against that unfortunately.
If the output of an LLM would found to be derivative of the input, that’d cause lots of problems for (e.g.) Linux, they love claude and have been funneling its output into the kernel for a while now, they’d rather not think about the licensing situation there.
Just further enshittification. Companies don’t make new things or new technologies anymore. They just find new ways to rent squat and extract fees. They’ve stolen everyone’s work, manufactured a way to give it to you first without you seeing the author’s material, and told everyone to use this method to access information so they can charge for it.
And the people charging admission are also hemorrhaging money.
Weird fucking timeline.
I think their hope is if they pull it off they won’t need money anymore, because they’ll have destroyed the last lever of power the working class still have: the ability to withhold their labour. LLMs are trying to turn labour into just another tool (that you rent).
Are those people so detached that they think industry is people writing emails to each other?
The worst part (maybe the second worst after all the slop poisoning the internet nowadays) is the proof that copyright law is only for us poors.
I download a copyrighted work and get a strongly worded letter from my ISP, or worse. They download all the copyrighted works; scrape the data from them; and charge for the ability to use said data to make derivative, non-transformative slop; and get fabulously wealthy from it.
I download a copyrighted work and get a strongly worded letter from my ISP
So stop downloading from public trackers. Get into private trackers.
I meant it more as a general thing - I should have said “we” instead.
They actually seem pretty chill about it here in New Zealand. My dad and I had one ISP notice in the early 2000s, but I’ve downloaded absolutely shitloads since and we haven’t heard a peep.
Nowadays I tend to use Usenet anyway; the speed of even the healthiest torrents pales in comparison.
the speed of even the healthiest torrents pales in comparison
Again, private trackers. =) I can easily saturate the 2.5Gbps ethernet port on my work PC. Haven’t tried pushing the full 10gig link yet, don’t want to draw attention to myself since it’s only supposed to be 2. It would have no problem though. Private torrents are seeded by seedboxes typically. And torrent longevity on private trackers beats usenet longevity, because some people never stop seeding.
the point still stands. they are allowed, we are not, and we need to hide doing it.
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