To this day, she remembers the racing thoughts, the instant nausea, the hairs prickling up on her legs, the sweaty palms. She had shared a photograph of herself in her underwear with a boy she trusted and, very soon, it had been sent around the school and across her small home town, Aberystwyth, Wales. She became a local celebrity for all the wrong reasons. Younger kids would approach her laughing and ask for a hug. Members of the men’s football team saw it – and one showed someone who knew Davies’s nan, so that’s how her family found out.
Her book, No One Wants to See Your D*ck, takes a deep dive into the negatives. It covers Davies’s experiences in the digital world – that includes cyberflashing such as all those unsolicited dick pics – as well as the widespread use of her images on pornography sites, escort services, dating apps, sex chats (“Ready for Rape? Role play now!” with her picture alongside it). However, the book also shines a light on the dark online men’s spaces, what they’re saying, the “games” they’re playing. “I wanted to show the reality of what men are doing,” says Davies. “People will say: ‘It’s not all men’ and no, it isn’t, but it also isn’t a small number of weirdos on the dark web in their mum’s basements. These are forums with millions of members on mainstream sites such as Reddit, Discord and 4chan. These are men writing about their wives, their mums, their mate’s daughter, exchanging images, sharing women’s names, socials and contact details, and no one – not one man – is calling them out. They’re patting each other on the back.”
I think part of why she didn’t seen men fighting some of the shitty stuff online is due to the echochamber effect of those communities. Any resistance is downvoted, dogpiled with hateful comments, and maybe even removed by a biased mod. A lot of the good men who would defend in those comments don’t even browse those specific forums because of how toxic and shitty they can be.
The good men aren’t there and don’t even know what’s going on. I’ve used Reddit and Lemmy but have blocked the NSFW/NSFL stuff. There is no opportunity to denounce or report because I remain deliberately blissfully ignorant.
Also why would I ever recognize a space like that and not run away. “Calling out” is still participation, and why would I want to participate (incl. from the legal perspective). I have the moral obligation to do that because…I am man? As if being a man was being part of a club.
I believe we (as in, people) all have a responsibility to hold each other accountable. But we can also only do so much, and inserting yourself into a toxic community founded for the sole goal of normalizing that toxicity in some misguided attempt to reform such people is beyond what any one person can be expected to engage with.
Precisely. It’s completely different from doing that in your group of friends, where confrontation is a way to establish common values, and in an internet cesspool where anyway I am going to be moderated out.
Just yesterday I was reading a great article about how social medias compare to TV when it comes to feeling part of a group. “Calling out” people in such places wouldn’t be anything else that virtue signaling (to yourself) to reaffirm your own identity (I stand up to sexism), and at the same time allow those people to reaffirm themselves (I get confronted because I am speaking truth).
Basically it would be at most a performance.
I believe we (as in, people) all have a responsibility to hold each other accountable. But we can also only do so much, and inserting yourself into a toxic community …
Me too, both. That we have responsibility for others and that we are not obliged to put ourselves at harms risk.
But this is a particularly shitty, maybe wicked problem. There are three groups: A bullies B, and C could stop A, but isn’t bothered by anyone. Now, is C obliged to pick a fight with A, or is B just in bad luck to be born as a B?
I think here, it is very easy to have strong opinions, while very hard to formulate a concise moral argument. Things get muddier/harder the more we factor reality in.
You’re absolutely right, but haven’t I read that they’re learning to lie about their presence in the manophere? So if it’s, say 10% who actively think and act that way, plus 15% passively subject themselves to it without going all in, but who aren’t really judging, that’s 1/4 guys who I wouldn’t risk a relationship with, many of whom are actively hiding their positions. I can see why it wouldn’t be worth it to date any man. Especially for someone with her experiences.
And my IRL impression is that it’s way more guys than 15% who intentionally expose themselves to it, and slightly more than 10% who fully buy into the misogyny.
I agree, and in my opinion, women and partners in general need to get better at leaving piece of shit men (or shitty partners in general). Many of them keep acting like this cause they get away with it after some small talk and a nice dinner just to be a piece of shit again next week. I’ve known girls who date men who genuinely claim that women shouldn’t be allowed to vote and all i can think is “why is this girl staying with someone who hates them?”
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Victims of abuse are victims who need external assistance.
Agreed. Assistance, implementation of which requires understanding of why they’re not leaving those assholes, worse, returning to them, or fall into the same pattern with a different asshole, all on their ostensibly free will.
The question is “how can the capability to leave the abuser be built”. It involves, in one way or the other, a change in the victim. Getting better at leaving pieces of shit.
Seriously I have difficulty, and this might be male perspective, to equate “need to get better at” with the frame “you’re at fault”. At some point, I needed to get good at cooking. Was it my fault that I couldn’t cook? Nope. It’s not like I didn’t show interest as a kid, it’s that noone ever bothered to actually teach me anything, so I didn’t know anything. Still had to get good at it. It’s a problem so you solve it. Why would I care wasting my breath blaming my upbringing it only distracts from learning. It can provide an excuse, but excuses don’t make dinner.
Ah, fuck it, let’s risk it. My edgetake on why some women end up again and again with assholes: Because noone told them (early enough?) that they can go to a kind guy, start a tickle fight, and get all the thrill they’ll ever want. It’s a function of attraction to the capability to throw down.
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You’re essentially saying “just nut up and do it.”
No. I said that the question is:
how can the capability to leave the abuser be built
I didn’t ever compare what’s necessary for that with learning to cook. The cooking thing was about how it’s silly to go from “doesn’t know how to” to “you’re at fault”. I used, specifically, an example far enough from abuse so it could be a general point, not tangled up with the dating assholes bit.
Where I did get into “How can it be built” was my edgetake later: Figure out why assclowns are so damn attractive that some women go back to them, put up with them, and then don’t blame the woman for having that attraction, but find a safe outlet. I’m sure that’s not the whole of the solution but I do think that it’s a necessary component.
We understand people can be brainwashed/emotionally and mentally manipulated to unbelievable extremes - watch any of the hundreds of cult documentaries that have come out over the last decade.
Steven Hassan’s BITE model is a good start for that kind of information, the interesting thing being that a lot of those cult-manipulation techniques are visible in anything from individual relationships (not just romantic ones either, parent/child in either direction, “friends”,…) over cults and religions to workplaces and political movements.
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Fear.
We should have social systems to help people over come those fears and protect them from threats, both physical and financial. No one should be forced to be with someone they fear because of finances, childcare, safety, or loneliness.
Not all shitty partners induce fear. I’ve known some girls who are just head over heels due to how attractive, wealthy, or mostly sweet a guy is. The good times outshine the bad times and they get into the “i can fix him” mentality. My brother is like that where he has gotten away with cheating with nearly every partner he has had. It usually takes the girl months to finally leave him and say its been enough. Hes the chad gym type and genuinely doesn’t have to try to pull women. Any time they threaten to leave he gets all sweet, shows up with gifts and acts romantic and sexy just to get caught cheating again next week.
We need to be hard on ourselves sometimes and push manipulative people out of our lives. I think an erosion of IRL friendships has influenced this trend as well. I used to know girls who would band together to help a girl get rid of a shitty guy they were infatuated with but that is much harder to do online than in person.
We should have social systems to help people over come those fears and protect them from threats, both physical and financial. No one should be forced to be with someone they fear because of finances, childcare, safety, or loneliness.
I don’t disagree with that. I would support that in a heartbeat if I had the funds to do so.
Not all shitty partners induce fear. I’ve known some girls who are just head over heels due to how attractive, wealthy, or mostly sweet a guy is. The good times outshine the bad times and they get into the “i can fix him” mentality.
Sure, not all shitty partners, but there is often more going on behind closed doors than many people realize.
My brother is like that where he has gotten away with cheating with nearly every partner he has had. It usually takes the girl months to finally leave him and say its been enough. Hes the chad gym type and genuinely doesn’t have to try to pull women. Any time they threaten to leave he gets all sweet, shows up with gifts and acts romantic and sexy just to get caught cheating again next week.
That’s called “love bombing” and is a common part of the cycle of abuse.
We need to be hard on ourselves sometimes and push manipulative people out of our lives. I think an erosion of IRL friendships has influenced this trend as well. I used to know girls who would band together to help a girl get rid of a shitty guy they were infatuated with but that is much harder to do online than in person.
I don’t disagree with that, however, people like this tend to worm their way into positions of authority like a parasite that you can’t get rid of. The fact that they often have zero issues lying through their teeth to get you on “their side” is a massive issue that many of the general public simply cannot grasp (“why would my wife/husband/preacher/friend/etc lie to me?” etc…).
It gets even worse when someone like that gets their hands on the very methods used to build those organizations and tears them all down. See the current state of the USA for example. I lived with an abusive partner for 11 years, and there is an unbelievable amount of parallels between them and the current US administration. What they are doing right now is incredibly triggering, knowing that I essentially have no escape from it.
These women don’t leave because these men are narcissistic assholes who have destroyed their self-esteem and made them think they are worthless and won’t find anything better and can’t live on their own.
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Additionally, those kinds of shitbags routinely get tossed out of respectable places. What brings the manosphere, and things like it, together is usually a shared experience of rejection and isolation.
IDK, instead of picking fights with random fucks in their own echo chambers where I’d just get banned anyway, I strive to be a positive example for the youngins around me in real life.
Yup. I’m not going to actively hang out with shitheads just to try and change them. I will however steamroll over them if they come into MY space and do it.
Guys seem to like going into a game together and fighting against overwhelming odds, working together to shoot down the enemy. Even if they “die” several times.
Maybe it would be interesting to get together and make a raid/foray into one of these manosphere forums, supporting each other’s arguments and shooting down sexist crap.
Several studies also describe the backfire effect, I.e., people getting more entrenched in their position when confronted with opposing arguments. I doubt I can ever succeed where a decade+ of education system failed.
By yourself probably not. But a battalion of opposing arguments could possibly turn the tide. These guys have already demonstrated how susceptible they are to peer pressure, after all. And they’re not all online at once, so if they’re suddenly in the minority in their usually toxic forum…
So you need a coordinated effort of thousands of people who will get continuously moderated, banned or censored. OK, I admit that it’s possible, but I think I’d rather invest my time in other ways…
Well, if you have some to invest, could you see about getting “i.e.” into the default autocorrect database so we don’t have to go back and force it every time?
r/conservative has already disproven that experiment, no matter how much opposition, they will spin a million excuses and point out how their echo chamber is being “brigaded” by bots or whatever
We should weaponize bots to do this. With AI it doesn’t even need to be real people anymore.
They’re using them against us and it’s long past time we responded in kind.
Then good news! There are people doing this. I’m in a discord where some people work on a bot that basically calls out that stuff on reddit. Making the bot is straightforward, the problem is it keeps getting banned for arguing. The hardest part is keeping the reddit account alive.
I explicitly stay away from such groups. I call it out in person, and politely check my friends when they say something that they might not realize is harmful, exactly the same way I expect them to check me, but that’s just it. That kind of discourse isn’t welcome in these groups because they were created with one explicit purpose: to justify and normalize the absolute shittiest behavioursof the most sexiest of male culture.
She’s right, it isn’t a small amount of men. But it’s a supermajority in certain circles, and a tiny, neglible minority in others. She, unfortunately, exposed herself to the worst of men enmasse. We should instead go to those latter circles, and avoid/ostracize those former circles, until they realize if their only goal is sex, they’ll have to figure out how to be a decent person first. And men, choose to be better.
Any decent man who has spent enough time in locker rooms understands that ~30% of men are shitty people and of those, somewhere around half are probably violent.
Once you have a daughter or put youraself in womens shoes, you realize how terrifying those odds are for women trying to navigate this world.
This is why when my daughter announced she was gay, I was absolutely thrilled. She gets to go on this new journey with the part of humanity that 1) can’t cause a teen pregnancy and 2) much less abusive
Though, do be careful because there are abusive same-sex relationships and sometimes it’s even harder to get away because the people around you are telling you “but women can’t be abusers!”
OMG I’ve witnessed so many abusive lesbian relationships. Women can be straight up psychos too, and are often a lot more calculated about it.
Yeah, look at Facebook when there’s news about some 13+ male kid who got raped by a woman. You’ll get grown men saying how “lucky” that kid was, and that they wish the same had happened to them at his age.
But hey, other way around it’s also often shit like “look at her clothes, she was asking for it, can’t be surprised”.
This is 100% correct. I have 4 daughters myself and an amazing wife. I see it almost daily. In the current landscape, it’s even harder. My older female family members don’t even care. They “got theirs” and could give a shit about women growing up in this world.
I will always defend women, and I patiently wait for the day a woman in my presence gets disrespected by some Chad, Andrew Tate loving motherfucker.
I’m here for all my human sisters, as we should all be equal on this planet. Fuck these men with no morals and no human equality compass. Scared of something they don’t understand or what incels tell them to act like. Its madness and makes me sick.
God I hate that you are right. I only have like one male friend because I legit had to distance myself from ao many other male friends who were just horrible people and I couldn’t stand to listen to them anymore.
Similar experience. Had a best friend who kept saying more and more misogynistic bs. After he said: “I could rape you, yoo know. And you wouldn’t be able to stop me.”
Over time, I made a munch of male friends who are awesome. Nothing beats binge watching the Owlhouse with the bro’s. Or a drunk pillow fight. Or a boat trip. They are fun. One friend is the kindest, humblest dude I ever met. I view him as a role model if anything. I’m also friends with a war veteran, and he is a kind guy who loves to train dogs and people.
It’s hard to find these people though. Most men don’t want friendships with women. They just fuckzone em.
What places do you go? My pool is super chill, I have seen all kind of uplifting moments. Maybe certain gyms have a selection bias? I don’t know.
I was thinking high school locker room when I read it. Cause it fit my experience there.
I played hockey in high school and that was my experience too. Insanely toxic attitudes towards women. Yet we elevate these assholes because at least in the US we still value athletics in men more than anything else.
Oh, I guess different school systems, so that didn’t even come to mind to me. At least in my country high school is from 15 to 19, I think lots of people thankfully mature and change after teenage years.
Same ages in the US. But not much maturing in HS.
I got beat and blooded multiple times in highschool locker rooms. I’d estimate a lot higher than 30% of people are the issue.
That just seems… Insane? My experience certainly doesn’t reflect this. But I never do averages based on a sample size of one.
~30% of people being shitty tracks with voting patterns
I like that this can condemn either side
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r/FemaleDatingStrategy is/was a subreddit as well (seems inactive since 2023), it was basically the same as r/theredpill, just for women.
They have moved to a dedicated website now.
Weird that this is getting downvoted so heavily, but nobody is elaborating why, just downvoting it and moving on.
Because the sort of people who would downvote that, have learned to avoid trying to get into these conversations.
People would likely be downvoting because if we’re having a conversation about group A doing Z bad thing to group B, changing the conversation to “well group B does Y bad thing to group A” is generally seen as a not cool thing to do.
The problem for me now is, someone is going to come and try fighting me over how men can be, and are, victimized. I know that. Anyone with a brain knows that. Men need more support than they’re getting, also, and toxic masculinity (ironically, the same kind you can find in the Man-o-Sphere) is so, so mean to men, telling them to walk it off, to suck it up… I can’t tell you how much work I’ve had to do to help deprogram the fiance, who spent 20 years in the Army… But that wasn’t the discussion. It’s changing the topic.
You’re not allowed to talk about any problems women face, without someone saying, “but men have problems, too,” and then getting mad at you for being a man-hater if you don’t immediately drop the thing you were talking about to discuss the problems men face. Which is such a shame, because it solves neither problem, and just serves to piss people off.
So now that I’ve engaged you, and said the thing those people weren’t saying, someone (possibly multiple someones) are going to try and fight me. I’m going to try and ignore them, but I have ADHD, so we’ll see what happens.
I read through their new posts and “strategies” frequently, mostly out of a sort of morbid fascination, but also a desire to protect myself from men.
Sound advice, it’s useful to recognize the bullshit lingo & rhetoric that’s all a part of these idiotic schemes (see: “Pickup Artists”). I realized that one of my acquaintances had started slipping those catchphrases into convos years ago, and it caught me off guard. They hadn’t seemed like much of an asshole before, but it raised my hackles knowing that they weren’t just reviewing the media, but integrating it into their personality/beliefs without any sort of filter.
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It is really disturbing how there are entire online communities of men basically dedicated to teaching each other how to be abusers.
beautiful quote, saved…saved to my wank bank! had you going there for like 7 periods! I need to share this on twitter
but no very pretty never heard it before
they moved onto other subs once that got banned, or on another platform, they are sitll there on places, like twoxchromosone, femcels,etc. alpha, beta thing came from pickup artists videos, and incels/and other men binge on that content.
These are forums with millions of members on mainstream sites such as Reddit, Discord and 4chan. These are men writing about their wives, their mums, their mate’s daughter, exchanging images, sharing women’s names, socials and contact details, and no one – not one man – is calling them out. They’re patting each other on the back.
I suspect there is some amount of survivorship bias type thing going on here. The type of men to hang out in such places are the type that enjoy it, and as such would never call out such behavior. The men that don’t enjoy such will tend not to come across such content in the first place.
So the first group just doesn’t care, the second doesn’t see it in the first place.
There is also probably some degree of the second group of men acknowledging that trying to call out such behavior won’t go very far. If you said “hey don’t share this woman’s pics” on 4chan, you’re going to immediately get laughed at, ignored, and probably called a bunch of slurs. And then they’ll keep on doing it because you told them not to. And that’s in no small part because these places are puedo anonymous.
Men can’t get away with such behavior as easily outside of the internet. Calling them out in real life is far more likely to go somewhere. However ther are caveats. Again comes the survivorship bias thing I mentioned. But worse, if done in real life and calling out that behavior backfires, it becomes a teaching moment. “Don’t tell other men to behave decent or they’ll ostracize and harass you”.
It’s a fucked up situation all around.
Let’s not forget that the people that call out said behavior get banned and their comments deleted… you can’t authentically claim nobody calls them out because you don’t actually know if anyone is or not… because ban.
I’ve called these assholes out on reddit to in the past. My reward was not only getting banned from their sub, but also getting auto-banned from a bunch of unrelated mainstream and progressive subs.
The idea that we can just go in and win an argument with these clowns is incredibly naive. I get the sense that the author didn’t actually try to do this herself. Social media is specifically built to push people into impenetrable bubbles because the algorithms intentionally favor combative tribalism, which drives up engagement.
But social media is only part of the problem. We have bigger issues related to how we think about men, and how we raise boys, that drive them into this mentality in the first place. Toxic masculinity is not new, it’s just been spread rapidly by technology.
Killer reply, friend.
I think so to. I’ve seen a lot of pornography and never encountered a community like that. I think the vast majority of dudes are just skimming the surface and never get into communities about it. Most of the guys i know would think doing so was weird. I had a couple dudes try to show me pictures their girlfriends sent them in the past but I did call them out for that.
I think the vast majority of dudes are just skimming the surface and never get into communities about it.
I’ve come across them. But only on 4chan, which there is fuckall anyone can do about, short of breaking into their site.
Most of the guys i know would think doing so was weird.
I would hope the same of my friend group. I’ve tossed a lot of friendships in the trash because of their behavior. So those that remain are hopefully those that are actually good.
An apropos of that. I’m Chinese/Viet half-and-half and was born in the UK. I have friends in the UK that are half-Chinese and half-British (white/caucasian). I had no idea that there were so many “half-Chinese” specific groups online.
Also, I can’t remember but there was some business about having a Chinese dad was better than a Chinese mom (I could have them switched). However, it’s mainly boys/men with this problem and they’re having issues dating or with school and everything and blame it all on their Chinese parent. My friend tries to chime in to talk some sense into them but the self-victimization is really strong and he gets pushed out.
However, it’s mainly boys/men with this problem and they’re having issues dating or with school and everything and blame it all on their Chinese parent.
Yeah that touches on a related problem, the fact that we’ve designed society to be anti-social.
- You can’t easily hang out with friends, because they’re half way across the city/state/etc.
- Nobody has consistent free time due to the enormous energy and time requirements for a financially stable life if you can even have one.
- There are no third places to meet people
- Cars divide everything with highways, busy roads, and slow traffic.
It’s incredibly hard to have a social life, and as a result people lash out. And they tend not to care about if the thing they lash out against is the correct thing to lash out against.
And it’s a self feeding cycle. Because men tend to lash out in the form of right wing populism, and any woman who knows anything will steer clear of that nonsense. So it feeds into itself.
In your case it’s self hatred racism, but it’s driven by the same forces.
- Cars divide everything with highways, busy roads, and slow traffic.
I’m glad you pointed this out. I realized how isolating cars are after moving to a walkable neighborhood. I’m convinced walkable neighborhoods foster community.
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I know a lot of guys in the comments are saying they don’t see it so they don’t have the opportunity to call it out. And some of those guys are making good points! These communities probably don’t interact much with men that treat women with respect.
But I also wonder how much of that stuff happens and they don’t realize it’s harmful to women. Obviously sharing photos isn’t okay so that’s an easy one to call out.
It’s not a man’s fault that he doesn’t see it, necessarily. You don’t have the same experiences as women and it just doesn’t occur to you as often. Women are on alert 24/7.
Kinda like that thing about the number of guys who feel safe walking to their car at night vs the number of women. (I know some men are anxious in that scenario too, but nearly ALL women are.)
When I was an elementary school aged kid, I was afraid to play outside at my grandmas house because a man drove by yelling cat calls. This actually happened a couple times growing up.
At 14, a random man followed me home from school.
In my college there was a flyer in the restroom about how something like 1 in 6 women will experience sexual assault or rape. But really that’s just the number reported.
Every single woman I know has experienced sexual assault or rape of some kind. (I didn’t ask my coworkers to be fair).
That’s bonkers.
But I do appreciate those of you that are trying to be better! The comments here are reassuring and give hope for the future!
It’s not just about how you’re treated by these communities, it’s how they work mechanically.
For example, on reddit if you engage with these people, you will not only be deleted and banned from their sub, you will also be auto-banned by a bunch of opposing subs. You get one chance to participate before you need to circumvent the platform by creating a new account.
It’s simply not feasible to engage with them online in this way, and that’s ignoring the time and emotional energy you need to spend to do it in the first place.
The issue needs to addressed at a societal level. As a society we value all the wrong things in men and few of the right things. A lot of these guys end up in these communities specifically because they feel they can’t meet the ludicrous standards created for them, and place the blame solely on women instead of our wider culture.
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Choosing to fuck a piece of shit, when you know they’re a piece of shit, doesn’t make you a victim, and I’m not entertaining this pity party claim that everyone fucking a MAGA asshole is in an abusive relationship. They aren’t. But I feel for the ones who are.
Also you’re putting words in my mouth. I never said these men were “misunderstood”. I explained how they got there in the first place. Their beliefs and actions are clear as day. I do not sympathize with them more than abused women. But you don’t want to engage my actual points, you want to set up a straw man and pull your self-righteous, self-pitying manipulative bullshit instead, which is exactly what I knew would happen.
If you dine with a Nazi, you are a Nazi. If you befriend a Nazi, you are a Nazi. If you fuck a Nazi, you are a Nazi.
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I don’t interact with anybody who does this. Really, outside of my wife and my close family I don’t interact with anybody. Partially due to being assaulted multiple times, my anxiety goes through the roof.
It’s horrible how some people treat each other, but understand just because I’m perceived to be part of a specific gender doesn’t mean I have meaningful opportunity to do anything about it. I’m just a human, and while I agree other humans are often bad, it’s out of my scope to do anything really impactful. I understand what is happening. It’s much much worse than you state. It’s worse in ways I probably would get banned for typing out on this site. Worse than you can possibly imagine. That’s something society needs to address, and as an individual I cannot convince other people how bad it is or how extreme of action we need to take. And not for lack of trying.
It’s good threads like this spread awareness, but reduction will not further the cause of improving the situation.
There are some cultures that are so female unfriendly it isn’t funny, some of that has to do with religion and some of that doesn’t. That’s also one of the harsh realities of combating things like this because some people actually grew up and learn that women and worth less or some other kind of bullshit.
The other side of this coin is that in books and articles like this and heck even your comment only women get victimized or men get targeted. Yes statistically men are way more the cause of (sexual) abuse, misogyny or whatnot. Same with that women have it statistically worse partially because of some culture and partially because some people are just dicks and/or sick in their head. Some men (especially gay’s, minorities and insecure people) get (sexually_ abused by women or other men, but that generally flies under the radar way more since they are often not believed.
That’s why I always feel the need to mention it just incase it helps somebody down the line. Let’s do better together!
You’re absolutely right about sexual assault against men. I thought what Terry Crews did was heroic. Even when he didn’t want to speak out, he knew he needed to be a leader and he spoke up.
I didn’t leave it out from a lack of concern. I was just making a point by how unsafe women feel in every aspect of their lives, not just occasionally in a Reddit forum.
Trans people, especially black trans people, are targeted in at a whole other level and are often ignored in reporting. They don’t deserve that.
Crazy that we all can’t just respect each others right to live.
Not sure I know exactly what you mean with what Terry Crews did.
I know you didn’t mention it for nefarious reasons or anything. I just wanted to mention it :P
And yeah we should all respect eachother.
Terry Crews was sexually assaulted by the head of a Hollywood talent agency while at a party in 2016.
Initially, he was embarrassed and angry. He didn’t want to talk about it, but after talking to his wife and seeing what the Weinstein accusers were doing, he decided to speak up about it. Seems that he wanted men to know to know it can happen to them too and to not be afraid to speak up.
I think it’s really important for other men (and other genders) to see that. Maybe more people will be brave enough to speak out too.
That you don’t know is a depressingly perfect example of how effectively this has been marginalized by society. Fuck.
To be fair I don’t live in the US so it’s entirely possible that it hasn’t even been mentioned in my circles.
That’s why I always feel the need to mention it just incase it helps somebody down the line. Let’s do better together!
If someone is talking about an issue, it is not helpful to bring up a different issue. They are not dismissing the other issue, it’s simply not the topic being discussed. To bring up another issue when one is trying to be discussed is actually dismissive of the problem at hand. It’s like you’re trying to change the subject. You should not try to bring awareness of a problem on the thread of a different problem. Just create a thread about the problem, where the subject at hand can be that alone. If you made a post about men being victimized, and someone said “but what about women being victimized” I’m sure you could see that being problematic and dismissive.
You are absolutely going to see more posts about women being victimized. That does not mean people do not care about victimized men, it just means it’s happening to women more often. There should absolutely be support and a movement for men. But, at least right now, it is separate from the movement for women.
I disagree it’s a different problem, it’s the same problem besides the gender.
It is a different problem though. Men do no have the same systematic sexism women face. There are absolutely problems men face, but they are different. Women are much more often taken advantage of, abused, and discriminated against for their sex. So when we talk about womens problems, to then mention mens problems is pulling away attention from the problems women face. Men have historically held most, if not all, the power. That is still true to this day. Men abuse that power over women more than women abuse that power over men.
Not to mention, the problems men face when coming out about abuse are ENTIRELY different problems than a woman faces, like you said so yourself. That alone seems to me like the issues are different, meaning they would have different solutions to them. Thus, their movements would be two separate movements.
Davies was contacted by seven men over seven days who had all been scammed or catfished by seven different fake accounts that were using her images. She wrote an Instagram post to warn others and a BBC journalist got in touch, leading to her first documentary When Nudes Are Stolen. This was life-changing. “It was the first time that I had sat down with campaigners and experts who laid all those images out and said that what happened to me wasn’t OK,” she says. “No one had ever said that before. No one had ever said: ‘It wasn’t your fault.’ It was such a moment for me. It lifted the weight off my shoulders.”
Good Lord, that’s depressing. When people take advantage of you, it’s not your fault. What is this world doing to people?
Pro tip - I’ll absolutely snitch on the guys I know that you probably shouldn’t date. Maybe you have a male friend that’s the same.
This just reminded me of the wonderful responses from these guys.
Well, that kind of supports my theory here.
It’s shitty that there’s not much you can do to actually intervene. Usually they don’t come straight out and admit they’re a misogynistic trashbag, it’s just a strong vibe.
My sister dated a sociopath. He was a master manipulator and cheated on and with every woman he wanted. This afgan muslim wad the biggest hypocrit I ever met.
He preyed on young women. Especiaally the vulnerable ones who suffered from loneliness, insecurities and/or depression. His charms did not work as well on me, because I’m not attracted to men. He did not like me and tried to ridicule me, cross my boundaries and set up my sister against me. Tried to slut shame me and implying I slept around in engineering. Trust me… no amount of axe bodyspray combats the overfilled lecturing room in summer. You could feel and taste the smell of men when entering. I have sensed every pheromone a man can produce, and none has a positive effect on me. And even if I did fuck every guy in engineering, what’s his point? He believed in polygamy. If he gets to fondle an theatre of tits, I should be able to ride every dick I want (with consent ofc).
My best friend was a guy. And the sociopathic pig would tell him misogynistic bs. About how to play multiple women at a once. My friend did not tell me anything about what the swine said. After all, bro’s before ho’s. And I was apparently the ho rather than the bro.
Anyhow. My warnings weren’t taken seriously, and 3 people I knew have had affairs with him. 2 of which were barely 19 and had a history of parental neglect and fear of abandonment.
Had my friend bothered to tell me, I may have had enough to convince my sister at least to cut ties with him. Instead, she become more and more miserable and doubtful of herself. Trying to break it off, but not being assertive enough to enforce it. Thank our crappy mother for that.
The pig also had a lawsuit against him for sexual msiconduct. He was a taxi driver and an incident had taken place where two women left his cab and hit the front of his car with a heel. Leaving a dent. Or so the story went. His brother lost his medical licience because there were too many sexual harassment claims against him in his dental practice. His family is known for misogyny. Fucker lied about his name because of it and refused to introduce her to his family. Reason he gave had to do with his muslim backround, but in reality, he was already engaged to another woman.
I hope she is okay. I doubt it though.
My sister recovered from the ordeal. Woman no. 3 cut ties with us and we don’t know what happened. We assume she did so out if shame. Which isn’t surprising because they all had an affair with the same guy. Fucking dumbass. Woman no. 2 was the most vulnerable, but is doing well now. Being disgusted with herself for how she acted.
I am no longer friends with the guy I used to hang out with almost daily. After he kept saying misogynistic bs and telling me he could rape me while I wouldn’t be able to do defend myself.
Men cannot be counted on for snitching, even if someone’s safety depends on it.
If you imagine some kind of multi year “relationship education” instead of just sex ed where all kids at ~14 learn about pathological psychology and all the ways people can manipulate you or fuck you over I imagine it would be far less off a problem.
There are some pretty awful takes in these replies. It seems a fair number of men here at least vacation near the “manosphere”.
Yeah right now Lemmy is a niche appeal social media site with a minor technical barrier to entry, so it’s basically the ideal environment for toxic users to spawn. World is getting better as more regular-human users are driven off reddit, and there’s obviously blahaj and similar instances, but yeah it’s pretty rough here. Lots of “Anyone who’d choose the bear over me is just an idiot, I’d never completely miss the point like a bear would” types.
This take is even more useless. A part of the idiotic flora of parasites that follows it around
As a middle-aged man, I agree that there are some completely shitty men (loosely) out there. A real man should be compassionate, caring, protective when wanted, supportive when needed, and should never do the absolute scum things this poor woman experienced. This is on fathers (mostly) and mothers to teach their sons what it means to be respectful to everyone around them, not just women but men as well. Fathers need to model the behavior so their sons don’t grow up to be terrible humans. It is on parents to address online safety. It’s uncomfortable to do this but really, really needed. As far as the man sex culture, I’m not sure that is a fair statement. That would be like saying a woman sex culture. From what I’ve seen in my life, you will always be proven wrong if you stereotype anything about any perceived group of people.
From what I’ve seen in my life, you will always be proven wrong if you stereotype anything about any perceived group of people.
Not always but the exceptions (or as close to exceptions as generalizations can ever get you anyway) are usually cases where the stereotypical behavior is entangled deeply with the very definition of the group, e.g. the vast majority of kids of rich parents can’t understand the struggles of being poor.
I understand what you’re saying, what I meant was every time i got to the point where I had a preconceived idea about a group of people, I was proven that I was wrong. There are always exceptions - that is my point.
The thing is most of these dudes are highly desired and taken already so what you get on tinder rotation is absolutely not that.
If anyone is unsure why women would chose the bear…
Most young men and women choose not to date. “Choosing the bear” isn’t limited to one gender. And yes, I understand it, at least partially. It’s rough out there.
Social division as a result of people not socializing anymore has driven a massive wedge between the diverse and beautiful spectrum of people who used to find appreciation and joy in each others differences.
Now every time you meet someone with different feelings than yourself, the internet has trained you to feel attacked.
This is why we’re all alone, we’re afraid of being attacked, and somehow our definitions of what an attack is has been radically subverted.
Sending unwarranted dick picks should get you a sizeable fine, maybe 600 bucks and a 2 year registry in a sex offender list.
Give you a choice to stop fucking up and if you escalate and keep doing it then things get worse for oyu.
Unsolicited naked pics have no place in society. We’re not talking porn here, we’re talking Joe sending a picture of his schlong to Mary like she is going to be ohh yeah let’s do that.
People with that mindset are seriously damaging other people. They’re the reason women are afraid to go on walks at dusk.
The penalty for that deserves some staying power. You’re on the list; to get off the list, you need counseling and a psych eval. I’d go so far as to say mandatory house arrest until you get the counseling and eval.
its weird and gross to do, but like how is seeing people naked so bothering to you people?? would a nude beach cause you to have a brain hemorrhage?. if I see something like that it doesn’t hurt me mentally somehow??
to you people?
Seeing naked people is fine, if someone asks for it.
Someone forcing you to see them naked for their own pleasure is rapey.
I understand the intentions behind it, but I’ve never given a crap when someone sends me a dick pic. I just block them and move on with my day. It just seems like people in this comment section over react to this. (the other stuff is fucked up though)
Ignoring the problem is the right individual move, but as a society, it simply tells the person doing it that it’s ok and there won’t be consequences for it.
It’s a dick pick for you today, but it might be their unwilling coworker in the alley when they work themselves up to it.
It’s a psychiatric issue and if everyone ignores it, it won’t just go away, it just becomes someone else’s problem.
The difference between the nude beach and getting unsolicited dick pics, is if you go to a nude beach, you kinda agreed to see naked people.
Why an expiry? It’s the digital equivalent of flashing someone. In australia that gets you a six month sentence, a $1,100 fine, or both.
It would limit watering down the register with ‘minor’ offenses. It would also help avoid trapping an idiot teen in a negative spiral, due to a stupid drunken mistake 10 years previously.
If a teen made a “studpid drunken mistake” flashing someone in the street and copped the same, would you feel they had been unfairly penalised?
Context matters a lot. However, in general, it’s a far lower crime than many in that category. Critically, it’s not of the level to be desirable to destroy their future over. The punishment should be enough to deter and correct, but not more.
Many/most of us have been idiotic teens before. Society’s goal should be to correct and improve. Not go in with sledgehammers aimed at skulls. In many cases, the embarrassment alone would be enough to do the job. The law just needs to drive that point home.
which is why underaged are charged differently. Dismissing shit as “Idiot teens” when talking about deliberate exposure of your genitals to unwilling parties really smacks of Stubenville though.
This is a crime that we let get normalised. Don’t continue the normalisation.
Idiot teen is an explanation, not a dismissal. Nowhere did I say to ignore it. My point is that there is a gradient of both crimes and intents. If there is no matching gradient in legal response, then it can lead to injustice.
An idiotic crime will often need fairly minor corrections. A malicious crime requires FAR more of a response. Treating all crimes as malicious ends up diluting the view on truly malicious crimes. It can also drive individuals into the very situation you want to move them away from.
What if they were banned from owning a smartphone or any camera phone? And banned from social media?
I feel like I’m in a different universe to most people. Only chance I get to call anyone out for anything is littering and playing music loudly in public. Honestly feels like confirmation bias, but I’m sure I’m wrong.
I mean, if you went to 4chan you could presumably call out more, but it’d be kind of like yelling into a hurricane. Toxicity is self-concentrating in really anonymous online spaces.
IRL bigots tend to hide their shit from non-target non-bigots.
Toxicity is self-concentrating in really anonymous online spaces.
The cause of and consequences of The Man-o-Sphere in a nutshell. People get drawn in by the promise of gamified easy answers to relationships (via PUA community, evangelist trad-life influencers, and other self-help gurus). But it’s a bait-and-switch, with “advice” drifting from “how to find an easy relationship” into “why women are awful and you should hate them.”
If it makes you feel any better, I can ping you next time I encounter misogyny on Lemmy? It’s far less toxic than a lot of online places, but it’s definitely got corners where offensive takes get upvoted.
the hairs prickling up on her legs
Some incel somewhere: “WTF IS THIS WOKE BULLSHIT!?!?!?!”
99% of men are disgusted by this type of thing, but with billions of people and instant communication. this type of thing is bound to pop up. and because normal people aren’t looking at this type of thing, they’re echo chambers of degeneracy. but it really bothers me when people use sex based generalizations for things like this. millions of people isn’t very much on a global scale.
I think it is more widespread than you imagine. If admiration for Andrew Tate is an indicator of seriously misogynistic attitudes, then the statistics (for the UK) are quite shocking:
Nearly a quarter (23%) of 15-16-year-old boys have a positive view of Andrew Tate compared to only 10% of girls at this age.
Furthermore, one-third of dads (32%) view Andrew Tate favourably compared to 10% of mums. This positive view is even higher among young dads: 52% of 25-34-year-old dads compared to 19% of mums.
Additionally, 49% of 25-34-year-old dads believe their child has a positive view of Andrew Tate.
Source: https://www.internetmatters.org/hub/research/research-into-online-misogyny-and-image-based-abuse/
Man these numbers are horrific we need to bring back McCarthyism but for these people
Are you or have you ever been a supporter of Andrew Tate
bring back McCarthyism
Fuck outta here with that authoritarian bullshit. You truly want to hold millions of people responsible for falling victim to Zuck getting high off Cambridge Analytica and globalizing the flood-gates of shit spewing? Content serving algorithms have torn communities apart, promoted violence and hate world-wide for most of the past 20 years. That’s plenty of time for ‘re-education’ and here we are reaping the benefits.
Hurt people hurt people. Human billionaires hurt society. Generational wealth oppressing generational trauma. Authoritarianism leads to the same power imbalance, and purging ideologies is anti-human.
Not when the ideologies in question are anti-human it’s not
Yeah, I’ll give you that one.
Maybe my opinion is influenced by my geographic position. I never would have imagined that many people of my generation support him. Where I live, saying you like Andrew Tate would be like saying you support Putin, maybe worse.
Then I’ve got some bad news for you about Putin, too.
As a man, it’s also reasonable to say this is nearly non existent among women. Does it happen? Of course. But not nearly to the scale it happens among men.
It’s moreso a matter of semantics. If someone says “Men are disgusting”, you don’t have to take it literally. It’s conveying the meaning that there is a large enough amount of men that are doing this that it is a massive problem in nearly every woman’s life. The saying would be a bit less valid if it was so extremely prevalent. But as it stands, I can go up to just about any young woman, and they more than likely would have (at least) been sexually harassed by a man.
So sure, with as many people as there are, it’s “bound to pop up” but saying it that way seems to undermine just how prevalent it is. And correcting a statement that expresses the sentiment that this is a large problem by saying “But not all men are bad” is counterproductive. They are talking about the systematic issue among men. You could instead respond with “Yea, we need systematic changes” or something along the lines that address the concern they are raising.
But as it stands, I can go up to just about any young woman, and they more than likely would have (at least) been sexually harassed by a man.
Thats’s most certainly accurate, since in the US, 1 in 5 women have been raped over the course of their lives.
So, Sexual harassment would be far more likely. I’d guess, 4 in 5 women, if not 5 outta 5.
When I said it’s “bound to pop up” I was talking specifically about the online communities mentioned. I don’t disagree that there are systemic problems but I think that they were focusing on a specific and small subset of a larger problem.
I might be wrong about this, correct me if that’s so. but because most men aren’t rapists, yet a surprisingly high number of women get sexually assaulted/raped, It seems like the problem is not that most men are predators, but that our society is letting the minority that are get away with it repeatedly.
because most men aren’t rapists, yet a surprisingly high number of women get sexually assaulted/raped, It seems like the problem is not that most men are predators, but that our society is letting the minority that are get away with it repeatedly.
It’s much muddier than that. Most cases of rape are someone the victim trusted. And most of those cases don’t ever get reported to authorities. So there are many men may have taken advantage of a woman, and that woman see’s him as an abuser, but nearly nobody in that mans life even knows about this. The victim may stay silent for any number of reasons. There are almost definitely cases like that involving men you know, but are unaware of what they did. As for the solution to these cases? Societal norms need to change. Consent needs to be required every time no matter what. There should never be pressure for sex, and peers should not encourage pressuring a woman into sex. Instead, the man will say the person stepping in is “cock blocking” when in reality they’re defending someone who doesn’t want to have sex with them. Men will back up other men in an attempt to help their bro “get their dick wet”. They will get women drunk in hopes they will have reduced inhibitions, or perhaps so drunk they don’t even remember the night. This is not as simple as “lock up the bad guys” when very few cases of rape involve being snatched up off the street.
When I said it’s “bound to pop up” I was talking specifically about the online communities mentioned.
Gotcha, I misunderstood what you were saying. I do still disagree that groups like that are bound to pop up, at least not as much as they are right now. I think womanizing groups are far more common than dedicated racist groups online. Racism has taken a massive downward trend over the last hundred years. Of course, it is not fixed, very far from it. But I also think it is undeniable that racism is less of a problem than it was 50 years ago. That is the kind of societal change we want. If the internet were around 50 years ago, the insane number of group chats dedicated to racism would have been far larger than they are now. Bringing awareness to these issues, and especially men standing up to other men, is what will help bring a decline to the number of vocal sexist pigs and their echo chambers.
It’s the same as everywhere, those who scream the loudest get heard
This is what happens when you let your son’s role models be sociopathic pieces of shit like the Tate brothers, Fresh and Fit, and the assorted fucking losers on Youtube who still use “SJW” like it’s 2015.
