- cross-posted to:
- 50501@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- 50501@lemmy.world
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I know how to handle firearms and I’m somewhat able to hit a target. But oh my god do I not want to use any, for anything.
ideally, you won’t have to. Just living within a gun positive culture is pretty preventative of the bad things that could be directly done to you. otherwise, make a range buddy?
Just living within a gun positive culture is pretty preventative of the bad things that could be directly done to you.
Ha. I know this is the wrong community to laugh at this, but honestly it’s hilarious.
It takes more than just being “Yeah guns!” to avoid violence between people. It takes a society where people don’t take each other for granted.
Fear is a terrible demotivator for people looking to cause damage. At best they’ll be looking for ways to cause damage before you’d notice, before you’d ever be able to pull a gun.
I’ll play devil’s advocate here a bit, but living in a culture where guns are a constant does put limits on a lot of activity. It’s also 100% true to say that people looking to cause damage will do so regardless of repercussions and often in spite of them. In most ways I agree that gun reduction overall has a greater reduction in harm than gun availability. That said, when living in a society where anyone and everyone can have a gun it definitely impacts some of the decisions you make.
I see youtube videos about people freaking out in traffic and getting out of their car to fight and my first thought is that they have no idea if the driver has a gun. The danger of gun culture for most people in that culture isn’t a random shooting at a school or mall, even if that’s what gets the news. The real danger of gun culture is getting into a minor argument or misunderstanding and someone shoots you for little to no reason. It doesn’t matter if they are going to go to jail for wrongful manslaughter or murder if you’re already dead.
When you live in gun crazy society it for sure cranks down a certain amount of behavior amongst normal people. The problem inherent to this is that there are stupid people with guns who for some reason don’t think other people have them and engage in confrontations as if that’s the case.
It takes more than just being “Yeah guns!” to avoid violence between people. It takes a society where people don’t take each other for granted.
I usually really hate quote texting people but I just want to point how real this is. Yes, you’re correct. It needs both. Valuing both is what makes us leftist gun owners.
As for the rest, I think the other guy who replied to you explained it way better than I can.
I’m in Germany, I’ll only need to use one if Vlad decides to come over.
that’s a good problem to have. it seems you guys have built your society right without all the insanity we’re dealing with in the US right now. take care of yourselves and eachother 👍
Just living within a gun positive culture
Ah, yes. I’ve heard that Vibes-Based gun ownership is 50% more effective than Regular gun ownership.
your entire existence is predicated by vibes and pretending it’s not shows just how unengaged with society you are. if you’d like to educate yourself, the entire history of the Black Panther movement is right there. there are places in America right now that ICE will not raid because of the viBeS indicating that they will be shot if they try.
I know I can’t force you to use your brain but I’m sincerely inviting you to at least check yourself for a pulse.
I’m 100% on board with you, but do you have you be so rude in your response to the weevil? They’re a genuinely interesting, generally nice person, at least in my experience.
yeah okay that was a bit dramatic. I don’t know them and I was being annoying.
your entire existence is predicated by vibes
Take that, materialists.
I know I can’t force you to use your brain
🙄
okay that was rude of me. I should have just let it be. have a good rest of your night
Better to have and not use than need and not have.
Can’t do it, my brain is bad
It takes a lot to realize that and exercise that restraint. You’re a good egg. With that being said, a paintball gun would have a low chance of self-harm, but they make coyote urine balls that smell terrible on impact. Just saying.
And pepper balls, and jawbreakers.
I’ll just point out that showing up to a hypothetical gun battle with only paint (or even pepper balls) is a bad idea. Cops and other criminals will undoubtedly act as if you’re holding a firearm anyway, even though you aren’t, and their guns can do unto you while you can’t do unto them. Tread wisely.
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No need. These days you can get the aforementioned “jawbreakers,” which are solid plastic or aluminum .68 caliber balls specifically designed for paintball gun use and what for to cause havoc. Unlike frozen paintballs they’re shelf stable.
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Learn to fly drones instead!
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I think you’re missing the point. The vast majority of gun owners will never have to use their firearms in self-defense, that much is true. Most responsible gun owners also hope they never have to. It’s also true that the vast majority of people with homeowners insurance will never have their house burn down, yet they still pay their insurance company every month.
Wouldn’t you at least like to give yourself a fighting chance in the event that the worst happens?
Just to expand on that, there’s value in just having them. The US military has developed anti-insurgent tactics over the past 20 years. One of them is that to occupy an armed populace, they expect to need one soldier for every three civilians in the area. They have to assume everyone is armed and everyone will be against them.
That would mean that if they want to put the US under martial law, they will need to mobilize 25% of the US population into the military directly and expect them to follow orders to the same level of competence as the existing military. This is a pipe dream. Approximately 10% of the US population was uniformed up in WW2, and agreement on the war was nearly universal. The draft existed not so much to get enough people, but to make sure the military could take in people at a sustainable rate without cutting too much into industrial production at home.
All combined, the regular military, the National Guard, and ICE do not have enough people to put the entire country under martial law. They don’t even have enough to put New York under martial law. They might have enough for Vermont. The ICE recruiting surge won’t change this.
They might have enough for Vermont.
The Green Mountain Boys, the long-standing Vermont secessionist movement, and a bunch of deer-hunting farmers with generations of familiarity with the land and a massive “mind your own goddamn business” attitude have entered the chat.
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What we’ll see from the 2A crowd is the same shit we’ve seen with the Israeli Settler movement.
Certain people are allowed to own guns. Certain people are allowed to carry them in public. Certain people are allowed to use those guns to take property, abuse political opponents, commit sexual assault, and engage in vigilante homicide. These people will be under the aegis of a friendly police and paramilitary force.
We’re seeing it right now, in Washington DC. White nationalists are setting up shop in the center of town with the blessing of the Secretary of Drunkfence, Pete Hegseth.
Ever study Black Panther tactics? They were so effective that they changed the rules to make their tactics illegal.
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See many leftists open carrying?
Yup
It doesn’t matter how many leftists actually own guns, because “owning a gun” is a right-wing moniker.
If you see someone with a gun, they must be de facto right-wing.
??
People don’t perceive carrying a gun as anything but a right-wing hobby.
Because Americans have grown weak and stupid over the last 50 years.
Oh yeah, the founding fathers just put that one in there for fun…
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We’re in the “stock up” phase right now.
No one’s going to risk their life until things get darker, which they will.
They put it in there because a well-regulated militia is necessary for the security of a free state. Well, we have a military now - by far the largest in the world, in fact.
No they put it in there because slave owners were scared about slave rebellions. But let’s not let that get in the way of stopping fascists.
I don’t doubt that’s part of it, but it’s nowhere in the wording.
And you clearly don’t understand what “well-regulated” or “militia” meant at the time, or any other bit of context.
There’s 2 types of militia - organized and unorganized. Organized militia is the National Guard. The unorganized militia is every able-bodied man of fighting age, roughly 16-45 years old at the time. Note that the 2nd Amendment doesn’t specify between organized and non-organized militias.
“Well-regulated” doesn’t mean “organized”. At the time, it meant properly equipped and trained. That means having a rifle, knowing how to use it, and also knowing how to survive on your own in the wilderness to some degree. All of these were pretty common in the early US’s history.
There’s also the broader context of US military doctrine over most of its history. Up until WWII, there was a very small standing army, mainly formed of a corps of well-trained officers (CO’s and NCO’s). The idea was that the country would hold a draft whenever war came, and that corps of professional soldiers would train, equip, and lead the draftees. Unsurprisingly, training draftees to fight is a lot faster and cheaper when they already have their own equipment and know how to use it.
The purpose of the 2nd Amendment is twofold. The first is to serve as a check against a tyrannical government by enabling an unspoken 4th branch of government made up by the populace. The second purpose is to better enable raising a military in wartime.
And aside from all of this, you are conveniently ignoring the second clause of the amendment: The Right of The People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. If you look at the structure of how the amendment is written, it’s very obvious that the first clause is there as an explanation and that the second clause can stand on it’s own.
And lastly, why are you going to a gun owners community to argue against gun ownership? You’re literally going out of your way to start an argument. Get off your phone and touch grass
it’s a current promise by the powers currently in charge. remember: the constitution is not immutable. learn that now and learn it hard.
2A is important and ownership even as a hobby is still very much important. There is nothing “defensive” about some of my guns, they exist purely to make me laugh.
I’ve seen “Rambo”, “Rambo: First Blood II”, and “Rambo III: Brave Mujahideen Fighters of Afghanistan” over six times.
I’m pretty sure I could fire an exploding arrow at any evil government officials who would try to give me a hard time.
The fact that guns have been vital to winning wars for centuries proves you wrong.
We just aren’t there yet.
Surprised this group hasn’t been mentioned. I have known, and been friends with, several members.
Yup, I’m a lifelong filthy anti-gun liberal.
Can’t be anymore.
It’s time to get armed. Wish it wasn’t, but the writing is on the wall. If Americans want to go on blowing each other’s heads off and having endless school shootings, well, that’s better than living under fascism, which is here, now.
Gonna be a lot harder for them to do what they want if we’re all packing.
Are there any resources for getting started?
I don’t like reddit anymore, but there’s /r/liberalgunowners. I’d suggest taking a safety course, then renting (edit: multiple firearms) at the range, and then buying what you think you need/ like.
Edit: Guy bellow me is also right.
Edit edit: I forgot about this part. You should prepare yourself to spend the amount of money needed to buy an older, used car. It depends on the state, but that was my experience. Around 4k with EVERYTHING involved.
Seconded on the safety course. Ask all your questions then, too.
It’s worth mentioning that you should try out a few options before going with the first gun you try. My spread went down by half in a day just by finding the one that fit my hand right.
And lastly, stay in practice. Like anything, if you don’t do it for a while, your skill will plummet. The last thing you want do is try to remember the fundamentals in a life or death situation.
Yup. In a stressful situation, you fall back on muscle memory.
$4k?? No fuckin way lol. You can buy a glock or even an AR for under $500 right now. 500 rounds of 9mm for the glock is $150 or 1000 rounds of .556 is $450. $50 for a couple hours at the range with a friend that can show you the ropes.
This is CA, including the course and all the bells and whistles. My glock was 1k alone. We’re limited to the gen3 glock due to the California roster, and it’s still expensive (mostly paperwork).
Edit: My bad, I also included ccw in my head.
I just moved from CA, and yeah CCW adds a lot (if you even live somewhere you can realistically get one). $1k for a Glock is crazy town, man. Even at the beginning of covid they weren’t that much.
Nah, for sure. I believe it was about $500 originally, but after shipping, taxes, background check, other fees, etc… about 1k. Half the price was paperwork. That was about 8 years ago? I’m not sure if the gen3 became more available. I know the shield is pretty cheap.
I hope you enjoy your move!
Thanks! Moved for family reasons, and very much miss California. It’s not without benefits though, at least when it comes to firearms. I can mail order ammo without any kind of license, and I can 3d print my own guns if I so choose. Nice that this state also recognizes my CA CCW.
Find a local gun store, tell them you’re new and want to learn. If they’re not in your face with MAGA, they’re probably alright. Depending on where you live, you may or may not be able to be discerning with your choice. Most gun stores are gonna lean right. They’re not really gonna side with groups that want to reduce their business.
If guns were the solution to minority oppression then the US would be the least oppressive place in the world.
Checks notes Apparently guns don’t help, but please do tell that to the 50,000 Americans we lose every year to gun violence.
That is right every year we lose more citizens than a major conflict and that is just “normal” apparently.
Doesn’t matter. Fascism is here. Time to get armed.
Facts don’t matter? sound pretty fascist to me.
Besides, fascism has always been here. Anything else requires drinking copious amounts of Kool-Aid.
You want to complain to the manager of the fascists? Maybe this will get them to stop what they’re doing? Also, if you’re going to argue a point in good faith… at least don’t make it seem like we should accept fascism just because it’s kind of always been around.
I absolutely detest fascism, but I also recognize that the US has always been fascist from the very start. Not only that, but the US is also the chief exporter of fascism having toppled 75 countries during the Cold War alone. It helps put things in perspective.
Your detesting of fascism doesn’t stop violent fascists from killing or seizing power.
You have to actually know your enemy to fight it. Saying the US is turning fascist is nonsensical.
You seem to be stuck in a nasty state of cognitive dissonance.
“Saying the US is turning fascist is nonsensical.” – Are you sure you want to stand by this statement?
You serve no purpose in your conversations other than to try to garner support for your paranoia. I notice how quick you are to point at problems, and how you have yet to offer any solutions or propose any alternatives. Nobody should engage you in any meaningful conversation for which you appear to be unable to engage in good faith. You also said this.
“Saying the US is turning fascist is nonsensical.” - Doomsider
Now stand by your words and explain to everyone why you’re not wrong without changing the subject and spouting about some vaguely related historical fact to obfuscate. Eat Crow, Doomsider.
I can support my statement with facts. All you have is feelings apparently. Cheers!
You’re a fascist apologist. That’s a fact. For the record, so everyone here knows what you are: Do you or do you not support using violence against violent fascists?
As I suspected, you just want to murder people just like the fascists you hate. YouAreLiterallyaFascist!
Answer the question. Don’t make it about me.
Man, sure is quiet here. He responded to me elsewhere, however… but not here. Fuckin’ crickets are loud, though.
You’ve lost the narrative. Nobody cares what you think anymore, if they ever did. You enjoy the taste of boot leather with a sanctimonious superiority fetish. This is what you are.
I could care less about what a mentally ill wannabe fascist thinks about me. Haters gonna hate.
Man, if you need help… just reach out. I’m here for you.
Since you’re not messaging me, anymore, I just want you to know that I think it’s really sweet of you to be able to care less for me. You’ve set our differences aside and become a better person than you were before. That’s what life is all about.
Oh please, you are such a ham.
Just start the war already and stop edging us
I suggest you watch these 3 videos in sequence and in full (assuming you have the attention-span for it):
guns part 1 (technicalities)
guns part 2 (failed laws)
guns part 3 (possible solutions)
especially if you’re non-US.Knew it was Beau before I even clicked on it. Great little video series he did back then!
“Only 3 kinds of people in the world: pro-gun, anti-gun and those who actually know how firearms work.”
I miss that man. His wife is doing a great job though.
She doesn’t do it for me the way Beau did! She’s not bad, she just has a different way of delivering things that I don’t enjoy as much.
She’s clearly reading a script, whereas he seemed to be talking without one.
This is one of the more surprising reversals in leftist opinion over the last ten years.
Leftists? I don’t think so. Progressives and liberals maybe, yes.
I mean, it’s not exactly a new opinion. Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers should be frustrated, by force if necessary
it’s just quite shocking to me as a Canadian. But I can see the logic behind it.
There is none. It’s just people who would never do anything in real life acting tough on the internet.
^ Prime example right there.
A prime example of what, genius? That makes no fucking sense in the context of the conversation.
look up “stochastic violence”
I’m not sure how being Canadian factors into it; we still read Marx in Canada (at least, those of us on the left do)
It’s always been the case that if you go left far enough you get your guns back.
I absolutely believe that giving guns to everybody is a really dumb idea. But if I was living in the present day US, I’d start stocking up on guns and ammo and practice shooting.
Maybe we can just pool together money and arm the unions. Imagine how hard mass-layoffs would be if unions had a missile launcher.
If it comes to the point when you need to use a gun to defend yourself, you’ve already lost. None of the existential threats to a person in US, existing or future, can be solved by shooting at it. You can make a lot of things whole lot worse by introducing armed conflict to it, but nothing can be made better by it. If I was a conspiratorial type, I would say that making the left gun-happy is a psyop by fascists, because there is very little things is as dangerous to a healthy society as the ubiquity of guns, and fasch can’t thrive in a healthy society.
If it comes to the point when you need to use a gun to defend yourself, you’ve already lost.
Did you miss the bit where people are being ICEd?
They’ve already lost.And shooting at ICE will make things substantially, distopially worse. It will either bring the true fascist regime of which this one is a pale shadow, or a civil war, and a civil war is basically an end of at least two generations, even if “good guys” win. However bad a life of a regular person is in the US right now, and it is bad for a lot of people, I can absolutely assure you, it’s nothing compared to life of a person in a country where civil war is happening. Or full blown authoritarianism for that matter.
None of the existential threats to a person in US, existing or future, can be solved by shooting at it
I think we are referring to other humans with guns, which can in fact be solved by shooting them. In fact, that’s SOP for SWAT, who are the kind of people you want well-armed … assuming you also have an inclusive, pluralistic, liberal democracy to govern them.
Root cause here is cultural. US needs denazification, according to the original pre-Putin definition of the word, exact same way post-WWII German society became… an inclusive, pluralistic, liberal democracy
None of the existential threats to a person in US, existing or future, can be solved by shooting at it.
Wrong.
Fascism is here. It is not an existential threat. And fascism always has to be responded to with force. Fascists do not respond to politely phrased requests or democratic elections.
You can make a lot of things whole lot worse by introducing armed conflict to it, but nothing can be made better by it.
Are you unaware of WW2?
there is very little things is as dangerous to a healthy society as the ubiquity of guns
This isn’t a healthy society.
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Fascism isn’t a guy you can shoot at. It’s a social disorder, and the best food for it is an inability of people to organise, to trust each other, to form communities that will recognise attempts of autocrats to usurp the power and to take your democracy away. And among the instruments of this social erosion is this fundamental fear people have of each other. Fear that exacerbated by ubiquity of guns, in part caused by it, and made substantially worse by it. Fascists want you to think in a framework of personal violence, they want you to dream about getting into direct fights, because that’s their whole world, that’s where they thrive. When they come to your house to throw you to jail for thoughtcrime, they want you to respond with shooting your gun at them. What they don’t want is for you to be connected to your neighbors, to your social group.
Are you unaware of WW2?
Are you by any chance a country in Europe in the middle of 20 century? Because if not, the WW2 isn’t an applicable example.
This isn’t a healthy society.
Yeah, for example y’all are too obsessed with guns
Doesn’t seem to matter which side, both ignore that whole inconvenient militia part.
That’s not what it means. The militia part is the reason why they wrote the 2nd amendment. The People is who it’s for.
It’s true.
But you have to respond to fascism with force.
So it’s a necessary reversal.
If we lived in a better society we wouldn’t need to have reversed on this topic and we’d still be trying to reduce the number of firearms. But we live in a stupid society that forces us to have to arm ourselves. That’s the current reality.
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I’m aware, and I still believe this is a change in leftist opinion.
it’s almost like people change their stances on things depending on the situation
healthy country? kids shouldn’t have easy access to guns
whatever the fuck is going on right now in the us? give everybody a gun without question and let’s see how it plays out. can’t be worse than an authoritarian government
idk why you said “it’s almost like,” as though you think I’m stupid for pointing out that it’s interesting that this has been a change in the left.
Tell that to German Jews in the 1930s, I’m pretty sure my great grandparents were armed.
There’s a lot more to it than that.
There was widespread feeling that if they just went along with it, the Nazis would leave them alone. That was a deadly wrong assumption. There’s also factors like having enough able-bodied young adults to do it when there was a need for them to take care of older people.
Forgotten Weapons has a video about a college paper he wrote on the topic. It largely shows that people in the Jewish Ghettos could get crude but workable firearms if they needed, but the factors above tended to get in the way.
As were some of the groups in the Civil Rights movement. There was a group armed and trained by a black WW2 veteran that protected families from retaliation by the KKK for going to desegregated schools. Armed with rifles and machine guns, they would put sandbag emplacements on people’s porches to ensure that their kids were safe throughout the night.
Together, monkey strong. When we’re divided, it’s much easier to silence us one by one. And that doesn’t even need guns to be involved in the equation.
Ape together strong
Harder, not impossible.
The ones that fought back often had a higher survivability rate than those that did not. Especially those that survived the ghetto uprisings to join resistance groups such as the Bielski Brothers. So while nothing was guaranteed, armed resistance did increase the odds of survival.
i aint ever seen police shoot tear gas at armed protesters. they left those black panthers alone.
they left those black panthers alone.
I hope this is sarcasm.
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The lower left picture (and other knowledge of the groups) makes me think that the upcoming resistance will be led by trans and furry hackers/coders, etc. I hope they can organize. How sick would that be if they’re the ones responsible for taking down the fascists.
Genuine question, how exactly do you picture this playing out? Let’s say you are a homosexual married person in the US, and the right for gay marriage is overturned. Now what? How is a gun going to help you? When someone tells you “actually you’re not married anymore” just shoot them? What is the plan here?
PSA: WHEN YOUR LIFE IS THREATENED BY MASKED THUGS, PLEASE DO NOT RESIST. JUST DO WHAT THEY SAY AND QUIETLY DISAPPEAR. DO NOT MAKE THE FASCISTS KNOW FEAR. REMAIN HARMLESS.
I DO NOT WISH TO SEE ANYTHING THAT THREATENS MY COMFORT OR PRIVILEGE. THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION ON THIS MATTER.
You’re sincerely confused? It’s clear you have no background in anything military or perhaps even psychology. It’s power-projection. You’ve become so conditioned to believe that power-projection is only used as a tool of oppression that you’re overlooking the fact that it’s better to point guns than it is to face guns, and it’s certainly worse to face guns without one to point back. Would you rather cede power to those who desire it than support empowering those who would wield it to protect your right to exists? You want to exist in an ideal world? Be willing to fight for it – the ones who wish to oppress others are certainly willing to use violence to achieve their means. Once you’ve claimed victory over violent oppression, then you can set the guns aside and build a society around the flimsy concept of a disarmed society. Guns are still tools and have uses outside of violence, but that’s outside the scope of the point I’m making.
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