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Both things can be true.
One step at a time.Yeah, splitting up isn’t a great thing right now. Let’s team up together and fight the nazis.
It’s almost like some people here desperately want to create division in the left.
Glad to see it backfiring on one post.
You’re the only person in here talking about splitting up?
Let’s just make sure when this is over, that actual leftists are put in charge so we don’t get a repeat of this in 20 years.
Let’s just make sure when this is over, that actual leftists are put in charge
Leftist don’t want to get organized to be a third party or vote as left as they can in major parties. They won’t be in charge because they don’t want to be engaged.
People who are not represented by the two party system are disenfranchised by First-past-the-post voting.
Electoral Reform Videos
First Past The Post voting (What most states use now)
Videos on alternative electoral systems
Dude, the leftists shitting on liberals thing is extremely strong around here. You would think the only enemy in sight is the Democratic Party to hear some tell it. Oh look, here comes someone right now to do exactly that!
The Democratic Party is the insidious great apologizer for Capital. The Democrat Party funds the wars, were the original kings of “mass deportation”, and have been the architects of numerous an austerity policy that has betrayed and immiserated the working class.
The Democratic Party is the more advanced villain, as they wrap their rhetoric in the language of moralism to make them immune to criticism from more “left wing” moralizers. Which is why many are stuck arguing to death in petty fights with the rhetoric of reform and moralism of the Left Wing of Capital while the republicans are more openly evil who are easy to dismiss and not argue with.
Only through recognizing both the Democratic and Republican party as institutions of class control will you ever make progress.
Yes Dems are antilib/antileft as well
Well then maybe the Democratic party should stop supporting the Facsists, and should start fighting against them.
Im willing to work with anyone who has a real backbone and is acturally willing to fight fascism. People who reject all fascism even a compromised fascism lite.
Walking in the direction of only one.
Because the other is merely a stop on the way.If you don’t strive for the best option, you’ll settle for compromise.
That’s what politics is, compromise. That’s why “they” say to shoot for the biggest thing you want, because half way there is still better than when you first started.
No, that’s what centrism is, compromise with the right.
We fight for what we want, and we don’t stop halfway sorry.
Yeah you get the compromise first, people realize that it’s great, and push farther from that. Taking the big leap, while not impossible, is much harder and less likely to succeed the way you want.
But you don’t really seem to care about nuance and just want more excuses to insult people who aren’t as left as you are. Obviously even liberals think ubi is the best option
Obviously even liberals think ubi is the best option
And leftists don’t.
UBI is a bandage for capitalism, it’s not a real solution anyone should be pushing for and will remain at risk of being cut for as long as it’s ever implemented.
Is our next step going to be passing conservative legislation and pretending its a win for 15 years again?
damn right. in the US, performing labor is seen as more important than human life. that tells you a lot.
And most of them defend it.
I guess it’s some variation of Stockholm syndrome.
Stockholm syndrome was supposedly debunked recently.
What it actually looks to be is a stripped out and twisted version of meritocracy.
“I’ve worked for my achievements and earned my rights, everyone else should do the same or not share in my privileges.”
It is a super weird and self contradictory thing. Because yeah, the notion is that labor’s important because labor is how anything gets done, and without things getting done, how does anyone get to live a life at all? Entropy is real after all. So people who would do no labor yet get support from the rest of society are seen as execrable parasites.
And yet… the big goal is to become wealthy so that you can live on the labor of others. The whole enterprise of business is about playing the system so that you can get more for less personal labor. And the highest form of this is to work not at all yet receive even more than mere support: total indulgence.
So how are people at once shat upon for doing no labor but wanting basic support, while others are idealized for doing no labor but wanting total indulgence?
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I do wish the left broadly could unify under the idea that we need to make incremental progress.
A lot of people on this very site think there’s going to be a glorious people’s revolution any day now. I could spend hours describing how unrealistic that fantasy is, but I think more people rather live with their indulgent fantasies than go out and plant trees that they will never sit in the shade of.
The label we’re gathering under is progressives, it’s mostly leftists but you leave the praxis at home and recognize that no one is going to read a pamphlet
Turns out, when you have good messaging, most people are on board with the practical changes we could make today. Mumdani is a rockstar at it
The Zohran Mamdani campaign has peeled the curtain back from American politics and exposed how much of it has been kayfabe all along. And the people writing the scripts are not happy about it.
I hope it continues, while I know he will win, I hope he also succeeds against the ringmasters and production executives who have manufactured our reality.
I don’t think it’s kayfabe so much as a bunch of consultant brained fucktards desperately grasping at power, but also having no idea why they’re doing this anymore
But Mumdani has shown us that the people really are desperate for leftism. They want what we want, they just need crisp and simple messaging
It is true that far, far more Americans (particularly in larger population centers) want more social and economic benefits from their tax money and aren’t being distracted by the culture war nonsense.
But I do believe the establishment democrat platform is basically owned and operated by the same forces that are empowering the right. AIPAC for one, the rest are a who’s-who of corporate interests and financial institutions.
Creating an opponent against your own cause, but one you can actually control and manage is a trick as old as time itself for fooling people into supporting your side while thinking they’re opposing it. This is why sites like reddit are basically under state control, even though you think it’s swinging left or liberal, the entire spread of narratives there are tightly managed and the closer you look, the more apparent it becomes. (Look up Eglin Air force Base + Reddit for a real tinfoil-clad rabbit hole.)
I do wish the left broadly could unify under the idea that we need to make incremental progress.
That’s literally been the last century + of western politics, and uh we’ve all seen how that’s turning out.
I wish centrists could unify under the idea that we need to make a complete and total overhaul. That they could recognize that the climate alone will kill us if we don’t do, let alone the fascists and capitalists at our back.
Oh man do I ever with you. I’m absolutely an idealist, I agree with the OP’s sentiment. But I will absolutely support anyone with any ideology that gets us closer. Small steps are easier to take, this bullshit that everyone thinks we need the perfect candidate with the one weird trick.
See what that got us. I have no goddamned idea where to go from here. I’ll support any ham sandwich that drags us in the right direction.
go out and plant trees that they will never sit in the shade of
I forget about this colloquialism, but find it a good description for how I try to be day to day
That incremental progress has been so slow its reversing into fascism, congratulations this is the enviable outcome of reformism.
Welcome back Karl Kautsky. Excited for World War 1?
Well the only people who are talking about stopping at one state are the centrists arguing we must ‘compromise’ and accept the top only.
I fully support going to both…
Uh…I don’t think you’ve done a check up on where the centrists are lately. Centrists split the difference between the parties, they’re over there going “well, healthcare is good, but who’s going to pay for it? I don’t like what ice is doing, they’re hurting too many people while they look for the criminals”
The abundance liberals also claim they want to do the first one, but they seem like a fresh wave of neolibs
It seems like progrssives are the only ones serious about the first one, and they’re largely on board with the second one
I think you’ve still identified that the meme is trying to get at “there’s ‘left’, and there’s LEFT.” The U.S. public suffers from a dearth of broadly-accepted terminology for labeling these groups, so some group will always misunderstand exactly who you mean.
While that’s true, I think by positioning ourselves at the 2nd state, it allows us to “negotiate” our way down to getting the 1st state. Its kind of like haggling. If you start at the more extreme position, opposition will (in an ideal scenario) try to find a middle ground to agree on. And that middle ground would look like the 1st state. It’s a way of combatting the ratcheting effect.
I feel like you hear the top line because those specific liberals are trying to convince independents, moderates, conservatives, and people on the right to agree on at least something. Many of the people they’re trying to convince would give a big “NO” if they didn’t include that 40 hours part.
The fact that there isn’t even a “YES” with the 40 hours part caveat is the bad sign.
I don’t think most of the people labeled as liberals would disagree with what the people labeled leftist are saying, but their trying to convince the other people that aren’t even bought in to the first step.
This is also an issue where the people that don’t want to help others have over 50% of the power in the US federal government currently.
Our energy should be focused on bringing these progressive help options to everyone at the state level right now to have the greatest chance of getting these programs implemented.
liberals are trying to convince independents, moderates, conservatives, and people on the right to agree on at least something.
the people that don’t want to help others have over 50% of the power in the US federal government currently
The problem doesn’t just lie in that there is conflict between people who do and do not want to help one another. It’s that there is a whole system in place that rewards the largescale harming of people.
Trying to convince people to want to help each other is a challenge and confronts people’s individualism. That’s not the issue.
But the notion of agreeing on something with people who actively require harming others is fundamentally destructive to that cause.
The problem doesn’t just lie in that there is conflict between people who do and do not want to help one another. It’s that there is a whole system in place that rewards the largescale harming of people.
I agree with you, the fact that there is an entire media environment geared towards fueling this as well does not help anyone. I feel that voting system changes and trying to implement a broader version of the Fairness Doctrine at the state level might help remedy some of the issues.
Trying to convince people to want to help each other is a challenge and confronts people’s individualism. That’s not the issue.
I agree, this is one of the challenges but not the main issue.
But the notion of agreeing on something with people who actively require harming others is fundamentally destructive to that cause.
These are partly the consequences of several things in one, many of them purposefully orchestrated and snowball. Namely, the defunding of education, a culture of superiority, the mass broadcasting of non-experts and personalities, and espionage to help prop up the worst and most divisive opinions.
The unfortunate reality is that there are lots of people out there feeling hurt. This hurt that they feel can very often be entirely justified as well. Maybe their town has had a slump in well-paying, blue collar jobs. Jobs that were once guaranteed to the level of people working at the same job as one of their parents and grandparents. Some of those blue collar workers were frustrated and then here comes the snake-oil pitch telling them that they lost their job, promotion, or higher pay to immigrants -when in reality it could have been to many other things like automation.
Many of those same people aren’t inherently against anyone, but when they feel lied to or taken advantage of then it makes their blood boil. Many of those same people could be convinced that it’s actually the billionaires taking their money and their jobs. From the sounds of it, Bernie Sanders has been having success with that message this year in rural West Virginia. There are a lot of voters out there with lower access to information.
I believe that if we do get a campaign going with progressive leaders that we could make some real inroads even in these communities and make it clear that it’s the billionaires that are making life in their communities more difficult.
Liberals: We should compromise with the fascists and blame trans people for our incompetence
Leftists: DOWN WITH FASCISM AND DOWN WITH BIGOTRY
This misses the point. The point is no one, especially someone who has given back to society by preforming labor, should be left out in the cold.
I think the point is nobody should live in poverty. Fullstop. Addendum to that, workers should be paid a fair day’s wage for a fair day’s work. But the first sentence is the core of everything.
They don’t agree with that, they think that if you have a job you are more worthy of being allowed to live.
Ok, I’ll bite.
I think that if you contribute to society you are more worthy of being allowed to live. Live meaning receiving a living wage, not life or death.
“Have a job” is one way to do that and there are many many situations in which it is more difficult for some people to “contribute” than others. But to paint anyone’s political opinion as black and white is a real right wing"ish" style attack.
It sucks, but the libs are the lefts conduit for change. Without them we will be stuck leaning farther and farther right as the right leaners continue to actually work together to take our rights away and we waste our time infighting over stupid shit like this.
I think that if you contribute to society you are more worthy of being allowed to live. Live meaning receiving a living wage, not life or death.
What did the words ever do to you, to be abused in such a way?
To live is to live.
To need any “wage” to do that is already permitting the wrong frame to be placed around this piece of reality.
Everyone should live. Full stop.
If you want nice things, gold trim and giant tvs and monster trucks, then by all means, use a wage for it.
Nobody should fear for their life because they do not labor.
Just needed to clarify that. Had I not, I could see my words being misconstrued to meaning I believe people who don’t have a job should be killed.
You missed their point.
No one, not only workers.
Still not getting it. These people have sacrificed a substantial part of their life and have nothing to show for it.
You don’t get it, you don’t have to sacrifice anything to have value as a human.
Why do Libs always have to dehumanise people?
If you work 100 or 0 hours a week, you have exactly the same right to basic life needs.
You dont get. Beyond your idea utopian society the society these people labor to build has forsaken them.
I don’t understand why you’re having such a hard time with what they’re explaining to you. No one is disagreeing that working people are getting shafted.
Yeah it’s pretty stupid to slave away under liberal capitalism and expect anything. We clearly don’t live in a utopia, yet these people act like we do and expect to be rewarded by it.
Once people start living in reality and realising our innate worth is more than a number on a corporate timesheet, maybe we can get somewhere.
We could talk but their isn’t some brain trust that is just waiting to be awaken. There is no grand self actualization. Quit wishing for it. People are dumb, scared, complacent creatures. Quit waiting for them to come together, hold hands, and stop the violence.
Thats reality.
We don’t need a brain trust, we need you lot to start using what you already have.
Reality is, as long as people like you argue and fight to defend the harmful status quo, things will only ever get worse. But this attitude is so deeply ingrained into you, that you can’t even see that all humans have the same worth.
People are dumb, scared, complacent creatures.
False. Why do you refuse others their dignity? Is it because you have lost respect for yourself?
People are dumb
them
Hmm.
It is not that working shouldn’t give anything beyond what you get for not working, but that everyone should have access to money to live for.
I am from Denmark and here you earn a fair living wage for most jobs and you have plenty of opportunity to get a high paying job. But for those who are unable to work or work as much or for some other reason are unemployed, they still get paid a small amount of money that they can live for and still has access to things like free health care and free education.
So if you “sacrifice a substantial part of your life” to make a lot of money, you can do that and earn the luxury you get from that. The system just ensures that everyone gets enough to live for, whether they are working or not.
People are saying “no one should live in poverty,” not “no one should live in poverty, by which we mean no one should make money for their labor.” You’re tilting at windmills.
I think youre tilting at the windmills. To say a liberal doesnt believe every one deserves a basic standard of living just isn’t true and is not what was said in the first statment.
Consider an example of a women, who does not work but raises childern and perform other chores to support her husband.
She is quite important in contribution to the society, but when we talk just about working people, we overlook her.
And I am sure there are many such people who are critical for the function of the society, but do not “make money” (i,e wage labor nor even owning capital for that matter)
This is why, IMO, this distinction of “people who work” is counter productive. Everyone should be able to live without poverty.
She is quite important in contribution to the society, but when we talk just about working people, we overlook her.
…even then, since her contribution is to her own household should that marriage collapse society decides that not only is she owed a share of their produced assets to date but also a share of his future production for her part in enhancing it to date (alimony), including the requirement that he must continue to produce at that level at a minimum (aka alimony is based on what a judge believes you can earn, not what you actually are earning). Sometimes this also includes a share of any future retirement income as well.
Everyone should be able to live without poverty.
Ultimately, what you would consider living without poverty requires the labor of some number of people to maintain, and eventually the question of why they do that labor for people who don’t do that labor will be asked, by them if not by you. Usually the answer is that those people are doing other labor which benefits the first group, usually abstracted out to some generalized representation of debt (aka money).
someone who has given back to society by preforming labor
These are two things that are often lumped together but don’t really have anything to do with one another.
You can be employed and give absolutely nothing back to society (tbh, probably the majority office workers are in that category). You can even be employed and take from society (looking at you, people working in e.g. the tobacco industry).
And you can be unemployed and massively give back to society. Just look at the people who do voluntary work or at the millions of moms and dads who are raising the next generation that will keep society running, all completely without compensation.
I spend all day sitting in front of a PC so that numbers on the screen of some investor go up. That’s not giving back to society.
… fun argument. Maybe someone else will want to engage it.
It is called the Nirvana falacy: rejection of anything that is not an immediate perfect solution.
A road is crossed in many steps, not one giant leap.
Ironic.
At no point in this meme or thread, has the argument ever been ‘We should never go to the 1st step’, it is entirely 'We should aim for the 2nd step, and don’t let the Libs stop you at the 1st.
The only people who reject anything, are the libs who reject the notion that you can work towards the 2nd step.
The only people who reject anything, are the libs who reject the notion that you can work towards the 2nd step.
Do they? In my short lived experience its us leftist that reject just about everything. We don’t engage in elections do we don’t change policy. I can’t even get people around my local DSA to shift toward open source. My pitch there is that we are moving to a parallel economy and independence from capital.
This meme is a microcosm of why we don’t have a real movement. The lib is broadly in agreement and gives us an angle for policy change, but the lefty, and echoed by fellow leftist in the comments, are flipping the table.
It does not apply here to smth that is this fundamental. Living outside of poverty for everyone, is very fundamental and basic, not smth that should ever be compromised upon
especially someone
This word is the issue that is grinding gears and it’s carrying a heavy weight.
What’s your take on handicapped people?
Is someone who has worked 20 years in a factory and got run over by a forklift and lost both legs somehow worth more than someone who was born without legs to begin with?
I believe a society can be measured by how it treats its weakest member. Or the actual quote:
the test of a civilization is the way that it cares for its helpless members
None of this prohibits anyone from making more money by working harder than others.
The moment when a society starts arguing over who is more eligible for welfare, that’s when that society moves down to the lowest level that it’s willing to offer.
Youre dismissing the actual need to appeal to an audience. Even those who do not share your particular philosophy.
Its simply an appeal to the capitalist or blue and white collar workers alike.
Some have a living wage. Some take full advantage of the current system and have no qualms.
If your point is that we shouldn’t attempt to appeal to them because its fruitless that is fine. Just understand, the message was not for you.
People with disabilities generally want to and can work, even if some can only do a reduced workweek and possibly need suitable workplaces and jobs (as we all do). Establishing full employment and guarantee of jobs to anyone who can work while accommodating the needs of the people who can’t work to the same degree and providing equally for them, is the goal IMO.
Why especially?
Why ‘why especially’?
This is a bit like responding “All lives matter” when hearing about Black Lives Matter.
It’s more like “End Slavery” not “End Debt Bondage”.
One is clearly more serious than the other and it’s not the 40 hr workers.
I’m sure you can get into the anti-confederate nature of that.
Progressive purity tests help the billionaires and right more than they help us make progress toward a future were common people aren’t treated like trash.
Nothing and no one will ever be good enough for some of these people, so fascists will continue to keep their power.
Lots of people are good enough, they’re just not lifetime DNC candidates with compromised allegiances and paid by lobbyists.
Such a low hurdle will forever be insurmountable to some of these centrists.
X: We have a non-fascist competent party - ?
Y: No! Only leftism!
X: Well, howabout the fascist party.
Y: Only Leftism!
X: That’d be the fascist party then.
I don’t know about your country, but our “non-fascist” party lost to a cartoon villain, so I wouldn’t call them competent. All it would’ve taken was not treating their voters with disdain and acting like they cared, but apparently that was too difficult.
And before anyone tries to direct blame at the base that got demoralized by shitty leadership, actually consider why you never direct that blame at the people with all power to shape their campaigns; the people who are supposed to “represent” their constituents.
I blame the people who voted Trump the most and the non voters the second most.
The Democrat should have been able to run a half empty can of expired crab juice and won.
The Democrat should have been able to run a half empty can of expired crab juice and won.
That’s the problem, they kept doing that every election.
Biden did a fantastic job and they listened to the people who thought Biden was too old and ran Harris who would have been great.
Even if you don’t like her life would be a thousand times better right now for everyone in the world.
they listened to the people who thought Biden was too old
WHAT? They refused to do it for so long it cost them the election.
That is some bad historical revisionism when it’s so fresh in our memory.
People who wanted Trump in or would didn’t care if he made it in or not cost them the election.
The party has told their sheep to ignore their history, it’s time for party funding and voting for the “lesser evil”.
You’re not actually disagreeing. They did wait too long, but they did it. You agree. That in itself is important. Can you imagine any republiQan doing that? No, because they only think about themselves.
Hell, they elected a demented rapist who’s stroking out every week instead of a legitimate candidate.
Historical revisionism? Not at all.
A shame you don’t recognize how much of a problem the Democrats are. I voted blue just like I had in every election before then, but I was so angry and scared, because I saw all the mistakes they made that cost us everything. I saw them ignore young people on TikTok and Israel. I saw them shy away from every possible hint of populism. I saw as they denied that the economy was terrible, praying the inflation would even out even though inflation was merely the tip of the iceberg.
Life would be 1000 times better if Harris won, but the fault lies squarely on the ruling class and the party elites. They refused to do what was necessary to unite their base, and as disappointed as we can be in the voters working 9-5s with no hope of ever owning a future, it was the party’s responsibility to win them over. Instead they underperformed in all those demographics because they refused to acknowledge problems or propose solutions. A party that has only become worse and will only fight the left.
A shame you don’t recognize how much of a problem the Democrats are. I voted blue just like I had in every election before then, but I was so angry and scared, because I saw all the mistakes they made that cost us everything.
Kid, I don’t know how many decades you’ve been doing this, but I’ve been doing it longer. Don’t preach that shit to me. Your “ignoring kids on TikTok” is hilarious because it’s so far down the list of the ways in which they routinely fuck up.
Life would be 1000 times better if Harris won, but the fault lies squarely on the ruling class and the party elites.
Comrade, you can bourgoise yourself blue if you want to but that’s just jerking off and ignoring the real issues. The real issues are: public involvement, messaging, and organizational communication.
It’s not a cabal of Zionist elites wrecking things, that’s what Bolsheviks tell college kids because they don’t know any better. It’s getting people to show up, and allowing members to communicate as individuals while operating as a national millions-strong political entity.
It’s hard to do honestly. I mean, it’s easy to do if you’re corrupt, stupid, and fascist. It’s hard to do if you’re honestly trying to do the right thing.
And whichever large city you’re in, please note the Slaver’s College requires you to engage with vast tracts of unpopulated land, and maybe they’re not as on board with luxury gay space communism as we are yet. (See the “messaging” part.)
Your “ignoring kids on TikTok” is hilarious because it’s so far down the list of the ways in which they routinely fuck up.
It wasn’t an important issue in the grand scheme of things, but it probably had a larger impact in driving away kids than most people want to admit. Voters often ignore actually important issues in favor of what they see in their daily life.
Also not sure where you got the idea that I thought Jewish cabals were why Democrats lost. AIPAC strategies to sink Democrats that oppose them are well known and explain their influence in the party, but the Gaza issue alone was only one brick in a very large wall. I’m not sure why you think being condescending is helpful. I’m not even sure if you’re coming at this from a bone headed liberal perspective, or a boneheaded ml perspective; I guess they’re both the same at the end of the day.
When MAGA wanted change they took over the party.
The left just bitches that no one is listening to them and it’s sad.
Nah, what I’m saying is we need to take over the party and purge the feudalists acting as controlled opposition. That requires recognizing that there is a problem with the shit they feed us, not pretending that it’s anything but shit. That requires not doing the same fucking bullshit party elites do of denying that the situation is terrible. That requires not giving up and believing there is no other way than sucking corporate dick.
Fear is how MAGA radicalized their base, and we have nothing but reasons to be afraid right now.
Biden did a terrible job. It took Biden hobbling out on stage, and making the Democrats the laughing stock of the world for them to do anything.
And what did they do? Put in a highly unpopular candidate, who kept saying that one of the least popular presidents we ever had was doing a good job.
Did you make this account just to say that?
No, I had an account, and said that. Why would I make an account just for that?
And yet you’re still supporting the fascist. Interesting.
How is it supporting fascism? Please, enlighten us.
I wouldn’t call them competent.
Well you’d be wrong. We’d have a functioning government for one. For two, it’d be in line with the Constitution instead of in direct opposition to it helped along by six corrupt justices.
If that’s not competent, we might need to start with a definition.
All it would’ve taken was not treating their voters with disdain and acting like they cared
Ugh.
Ugh.
What? Is it so hard to believe that the Democrats dropped the ball? Do you not remember how they said nothing as police attacked student protesters during the free Palestine protests? When they said nothing as a group of random Israeli aligned thugs attacked people doing a peaceful sit in? When it took months for them to even acknowledge that Netanyahu wasn’t exactly looking out for hostages? This is all without missing the even bigger issue, “the economy stupid,” that they are still in denial about. Just because Trump’s actively crashing it doesn’t mean it was heading in the right direction before.
I’m not justifying anyone sitting out the election, but I am explaining why some people probably did. It doesn’t matter how competent they were in office when they lost to a fascist who told everyone his intentions to be a dictator. They weren’t even clear enough about it being the last election to prevent collapse of liberal democracy. They didn’t fear monger hard enough quite frankly, and they still don’t. It’s disappointing beyond words.
Theyfucked up normally. This wasn’t them going out of their way to “show they didn’t care”, and there were plenty of Dems who spoke out, they just don’t have the mic and themic owners aren’t going to give them it.
They played it safe, again, and they fucked up, again.
Frankly every single idiot bastard that didn’t vote or voted trump can be written off as a poor excuse for humanity for fucking this up. Yes, I blame the Democrats but not half as much as I blame these self-righteous fuckwits who chose not to vote or who voted trump.
Stupid fucking shitweasels got us here, maybe they should wake the fuck up to how they fucked up instead of pointing at the one national party that exists to support them.
X: We have a non-fascist competent party - ?
Y: No! No parties, no state.
lol you’re really leaning into the Democratic voter suppression the last day or so. What’s got your jimmies so ruffled? You bitched up because Charlie Kirk got shot and taking it out on the rest of us?
Nothing has changed in my views at all.
Are you annoyed that leftists have different opinions to you. Do you want to stop me from sharing mine so you can only promote yours?
lol
You’re not a leftist. You’re a fascist aggressively trying to devide actual leftists and prevent coalition building by creating false equivalence and misrepresenting other peoples opinions in an attempt to help fascists solidfy their power through voter suppression.
You’re a stochastic terrorist encouraging apathy and disengagement from people who may actually have good intentions around making genuine progress.
Oh get off it with the pseudo intellectual ad hominem nonsense.
Stop trying to co-opt a growing grass roots movement back towards the left, so that you can re-align it with some corpo-centrist nonsense that doesn’t hold up to what people want and need.
And you better start understanding fast that the fascists already have their power solidified.
lol
Y: No! No parties, no state.
Far out. Good luck! Watch out for human nature, i’ve heard it’s a real rhymes-with-witch.
- X: We have a non fascsist competent party.
- Y: Do you oppose genocide?
- X: Of course not, we are owned by AIPAC.
- Y: Do you support the rights of Trans people?
- X: Of course not, acturally we hate minorities and blame them when we loose.
- Y: Are you at least competent?
- X: Absolutely not, we will compromise with Fascism and give in to every demand like a wet napkin.
- Y: So why should I vote for you?
- X: Fuck you, you’re dividing the left.
OP doesn’t understand what these terms mean.
You think the democrats are radical leftists, don’t you?
No? But you probably think Trump is since you’re comparing liberals and leftists.
I am one of the radical leftists.
Why would I think right wingers are us?
Liberals are the opposite of authoritarians, they aren’t left or right but a description of people’s view towards government regardless of political leanings.
Communists, Anarchists, Libertarians are all examples of liberals.
Trump is an authoritarian which aligns with your stated view of leftists not being liberal (being authoritarians)
Those are not liberals.
Liberalism is free trade, it’s private ownership of property - both right wing. At the tail end of liberalism is a little bit of social freedom which is somewhat left, once you remove all the qualifiers Libs put on welfare.
I did state you didn’t know the term.
It’s nuts to me that “everyone should have access to housing, food, healthcare, and education” is somehow a radical take. It’s literally nothing but beneficial to society at large.
I am a Leftist and agree with the Leftists take but the Liberal in this meme has a more effective message. The majority of people have issues neurologically with truly caring about things they can’t at least imagine affecting them and there are a huge number of people working their asses off 40+ hours a week while struggling to get by. Not that we should abandon the elderly or disabled but we should be diverse in our messaging and who it targets.
The leftists have the easiest message, it’s provide for everyone. It can literally effect anyone.
The liberal messaging muddies the message up, making it unimaginable that it could effect people outside of the narrow scope it presents
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Conservative weirdo says what, what are you work-maxed
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Why are disadvantaged people “bottom feeders”? That’s a very common conservative sentiment.
Not everybody is as strong or as able as you, and not everybody has had your privilege. I don’t need to know your story to say that and I don’t give a fuck about how hard you think you’ve had it. You at least have a functioning body, many people that you might consider “bottom feeders” don’t have that.
It would be desirable to everyone for life to be easier for everyone. Just because you may have struggled, making things better for everyone doesn’t invalidate that - no matter how much you might kick and scream at the notion of giving everybody the right to a dignified life.
Ok. Brevity is the source of wit, so what were you saying again🫣🫣🫣
The funny part is the only reason I don’t really want to work right now is because everybody fuckin sucks and makes it miserable. I’m a systems administrator and if all I had to do was computer work I would be perfectly happy I could work more than 40 hours. The problem is that 90% of my job is kissing ass to people that know literally nothing about computers desperately trying to get something halfway correct done while the retard in charge who hasn’t understood computers for over 20 years now overrides and makes a dumbass decision that is guaranteed to cause problems, trying to preemptively get ready for when it inevitably causes the exact problems I said it would cause and having to deal with the cleanup and getting blamed for it even though I at every possible meeting made it clear that this was a bad idea.
So yeah I don’t want to work , but that’s not because I’m lazy it’s because fuck other people lol
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Oh wow, I didn’t know you were a socialist! The USSR famously had 40 hour working week and there was 0% unemployment rate. I’m glad to see more people supporting socialism <3
What are you talking about? When i was born in the '80s, being unemployed for more than a few month was criminal offense in most socialist European countries. Leftism is beneficial in moderation, but definitely not every leftism is bestism if this is your only criteria for “bestism”
Which European countries were socialist in the 80s?
Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Chekoslovakia, Poland, the whole USSR. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_parasitism_(offense) Yugoslavia and Albania were socialist too but I’m not sure if there was law against unemployment there.
The soviet union was an authoritarian one party state my guy
I agree. But I don’t get why are you saying it like that. It was a socialist, authoritarian state. All of these countries were at the time. Maybe I’m missing something.
How can the workers be in control of the means of production if they aren’t even in control of their own lives? What a silly thing to say.
To be honest I do feel a bit silly continuing this. However, are you trying to say that socialism is not a leftist mode of government? How would you categories the policies of socialist/communist dictatorships, centrist? Workers were not above the law, and had no input what sad laws were. But workers did own the factoryies and the kolhoz. Most of these governments collapsed because they lost the support of the proleteriat (workers). It was not the will power of the political elites that hold it to gether, but the millions of workers sincere belief that they are making the world a better place.
Social democracy is good to live in; yeah true. Leftism (in general) is bestism; hell no.
that’s not how it works though
Neither is how it works, the point is to change how it works so that we achieve these goals.
that’s way beyond the function of a meme pic though
No shit. If it worked a different way people wouldn’t be talking about it.
While yes i don’t want to slave away most of my time by effectively working 10hrs in my 40hr work week.
yet- he who does not work shall not eat.
We overproduce an abundance of food.
There are people who cannot labour or be materially productive members of society, they are no less important or worthy of basic humanity.
A persons value is not limited to what you can extract from them.
i know my claim sounds confrontative, of course we should provide people with access to our abundand resources and some people are mentally or physically unable to work - you can’t expect them to provide something to society as they rely on us to survive.
but everyone who’s able should provide something.
no the abundance doesn’t come from 40-80hr wage slavery done by billions.
BUT the abundance comes from actual work done by billions.
Abundance comes from advancement of tech and tools, not just from labour.
If only the “40 hours a week” people deserve to live outside poverty then this exclude many other people who are without a doubt productive for society and even capital.
Many scholars never got money from their contributions, they didn’t even get recognition within their life. They for sure contributed positively to the society. Yet their works was not included in “40 hrs work week”.
Housewives also provide labour without which the society can not function, they are also within this categories.
Open source devs also don’t get paid for their work. Yet their hobby does in fact lead to productivity.
By restricting our definition to “40 hrs work week”, we overlook many of these segments.
look i think i am just bad with words. i agree. i don’t consider work as “beating hammers for 5hrs” but as contributing something. labour is labour. open source devs do work, scientists do work, mothers do work. everything is work in some form, as long as it contributes to society.
the 40hrs are an arbitrary time window while a lot of people only use a fraction of this time productively.
