• Ephera@lemmy.mlEnglish
    82·
    5 months ago

    I blame romance movies and novels and such. It’s such utter bullshit, how the stereotypical storyline is that she rejects him at first and then he’s just really desperate persistent and then she eventually softens up and they’re married ever after.

    Some women like that little dance of rejecting and the guy not giving up, but even then only if they think you’re cute beforehand.
    But most women will just find that creepy and off-putting. They want to have a partner they actually find attractive themselves, not just any partner who finds them attractive enough to persist through humiliation.

    • CarrotsHaveEars@lemmy.ml
      25·
      5 months ago

      I blame them too.

      The stereotype need to die.

      Some men take rejections seriously. If you blow them off then they move on. In some cases men find it really hurts because they know they’ll be good together.

      Can we go back to when no Tinder, no social media to carry out these “modern” romance practice please? No more stupid romance movies. And please every country pass a law to put a disclaimer on Jane Austen’s books, saying “This romance story never happened.”

    • boonhet@sopuli.xyz
      17·
      5 months ago

      The guys in these romance movies also tend to be fairly handsome and charming. The rejections are more often because the woman has had bad experiences with men and is careful. Or something else like that. Or maybe she’s got an abusive boyfriend she hasn’t left yet. Whereas in real life it’s entirely possible to just not be that person’s type.

    • Baggie@lemmy.zip
      7·
      5 months ago

      Yeah I literally spent the first few decades of my life thinking this because nobody told me how it actually works, and media was all I had to go on.

  • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyzBanned
    44·
    5 months ago

    It’s a bit of an overgeneralization to act like men are sex-obsessed and view relationships as a transaction where they can purchase sex by being nice.

    It’s human to want love and care, but so many people view men as only wanting sex, so if a man complains about being lonely, isolated, or being unloved, it seems like everyone jumps to the conclusion that he’s only talking about sex. Then they scorn him, reinforcing the pattern of loneliness and building the sense of frustration and being a victim of ostracization.

    Likewise, if a man is kind to a woman he’ll generally be regarded with suspicion, like “what are you trying to get out of this?” Some people just value kindness and try to be nice for the sake of being nice; but if it lands them with accusations and scorn then it’ll only go on so long before they stop. And then people will scorn them either for being rude to women or snubbing them. It seems it’s impossible to be a man in the vicinity of women without opening oneself to being labeled as a misogynist, no matter what you do.

    The reality is that men are also conscious and complex human beings, and depicting them as these simple and one-dimensional sex pests isn’t really moving the dialogue forward. All it does is give women a temporary feeling of moral superiority which they then chase like any other addiction.

    • ppue@lemmy.world
      9·
      5 months ago

      The comic doesn’t talk about ‘all men’ or even ‘men’ at all. There are all sorts of people acting like this and if you don’t, you don’t have to defend yourself or attack your imagined adversary.

      • ClamDrinker@lemmy.world
        7·
        5 months ago

        Not sure why you are getting downvoted. What wonderingwanderer says is true as well, but honestly not relevant to this comic. Comics with this type of messaging often very explicitly call out men (even those that don’t treat women as such), which leads to a hostile counter response. This one just says “you’re a dummy if you treat women like this”, which yeah. You probably are, if not worse. But unlike many other examples it could literally also apply to other women, (eg. lesbians), non-binary, or other folks who objectify women. They are exceedingly rare I would bet, but things like TERFs exist too sadly.

        • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyzBanned
          1·
          5 months ago

          Within context, it was very clearly directed towards men. If it were implicitly directed at any other demographic, it would be called a dogwhistle. So how is it not a dogwhistle?

          You’re right, men who act like that are pigs. Or perhaps more charitably, sheltered and clueless how social interaction work with anyone, especially social interactions with women.

          But there’s a lot of ground between “male with poor social skills tries to be nice and struggles with constant rejection” and “male demands sex as payment for basic pleasantries,” the former of which seems more like a caricature than anything based in reality, and anyone who actually behaves like that would be shunned into oblivion.

          In any case, the implication that anyone lacking social skills is a chauvinist pig is worn-out and unwelcome.

      • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyzBanned
        1·
        5 months ago

        So if someone makes a comic titled “Men: a guide for dummies” and the two slides are “Not this way: (picture of a vending machine where “sex” is the input and “money/free dinner/free drinks” is the output)” and “this way: (picture with a man that says “complex, conscious human being that you can’t program to buy you things”),” would that be any different?

        Because in my view, both are exploiting harmful stereotypes by making an overgeneralization about the implied opposite gender. You’re defending OP’s example, but somehow I expect you wouldn’t be too happy about the one described above…

        And by the way, if I had simply replied “not all men” to OP’s comic, then I would have been mocked and ridiculed by people claiming that’s just a manosphere dog whistle. But now it’s okay for you to say it doesn’t apply to all men when you’re backtracking and attempting to diminish the concern that this plays on a harmful stereotype that’s not-so-subtly directed towards men as a general category?

        “Don’t worry, not all women are golddiggers. If you’re not one then you don’t need to defend yourself or attack your imagined adversary when you see a post titled ‘Dilbert Creator’s insta thot wife disappears with prenup pension.’”

        Same shit, different direction.

    • raspberriesareyummy@lemmy.world
      5·
      5 months ago

      It’s a bit of an overgeneralization to act like men are sex-obsessed and view relationships as a transaction where they can purchase sex by being nice.

      I sincerely hope you are a woman overreacting in defense of the other gender. Because if you’re a man, you need to learn to appreciate some self-depreciating humor without getting butthurt. I could chuckle at the comic, because as usual, there is a (big) grain of truth in it.

      • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyzBanned
        11·
        5 months ago

        So you’re saying my argument is only valid if I’m a woman? And if I’m a man, I just need to learn to be more self-deprecating? What kind of double-standard is that?

        Good luck trying to tell women to “appreciate some self-deprecating humor without getting butthurt.” I’m sure that will turn out well for you.

        Or is it only men who need to be self-deprecating? Cause again, that would be a double standard.

        And if you find it self-deprecating to laugh at “men think sex is transactional,” then you’re telling on yourself. This comic is about you, so don’t act morally superior to men who don’t identify with it.

    • tea@lemmy.today
      4·
      5 months ago

      Likewise, if a man is kind to a woman he’ll generally be regarded with suspicion, like “what are you trying to get out of this?”

      Maybe it is just me, but I don’t think I’ve been viewed with suspicion because of simply being nice. If you’re sincere and nice, then this typically doesn’t happen. If you’re known as kind of a dick and you switch to being nice, people will take notice. If you’re being seen as love-bombing, you will be seen as suspect. While I agree men should not be typecast as only sex driven, I’m curious how this part of your argument came into it…

      • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyzBanned
        1·
        5 months ago

        Ah, then you must also have the privilege of being either conventionally attractive, endowed with good social skills, well-integrated into an accepted social group, or some combination of the above.

        But go ahead and say anyone who has none of the above is probably a dick if he faces ostracization cause he probably deserves it.

    • ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip
      2·
      5 months ago

      men […] view relationships as a transaction

      Meanwhile all the studies showing numbers (and reason behind them) of women who view relationship and sex as a transaction and trade sex for something, including a man being nice to them: Am I a joke to you?

      (And more studies on “sugar daddy”, e.g. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33433242/ )

      Tldr: it’s not even overgeneralization, it’s diminishing the female agency in the trade. Which I think is worse.

      • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyzBanned
        2·
        5 months ago

        But… but… some feminists on reddit told me golddiggers aren’t real and only men are culpable in transactional relationships!!!1!

        You know, any critique of a woman’s behavior is a harmful generalization. But generalizations about men are totally fine and anyone who says “not all men are like that” is a redpilled incel, apparently…

        …at least according to reddit feminists (not real feminists)

        • BarrelAgedBoredom@lemmy.zip
          5·
          5 months ago

          Just to be a contrarian and push against this trope, I’m AMAB and have been sexually harassed by several women because I didn’t act like a dick vending machine. Women deal with this far more than men do, and I don’t want to diminish that, but the trope of “men always want to have sex” is also harmful. And the behavioral impositions of being a man/viewed as a man (I’m agender) makes it harder for men to get support or even feel comfortable enough to talk about their victimization to their peers

          • Ŝan • 𐑖ƨɤ@piefed.zipEnglish
            1·
            5 months ago

            I used þe adjective “most” intentionally. According to Pew, around 5% of þe US population is non-binary. For every person like you who gets offended by women propositioning þem, there are two dozen who wish þey had your problem.

            • BarrelAgedBoredom@lemmy.zip
              3·
              5 months ago

              Few things here: this happened when I was still identifying as a man, and was not questioning my gender. I began questioning and came out long after these things happened to me. I was viewed as a man, treated like a man, and harassed as a man.

              I wasn’t “offended”, I was sexually harassed, groped, and made to feel unsafe by multiple women several times. It was t as much of a "proposition"as it is when a woman is violated because they didn’t act like a sex vending machine.

              Thirdly, fantasy =/= reality. I struggle to imagine anyone feeling elated by unwelcome, persistent, and violating “propositions” when they’re actually happening to them.

              The harassment wasn’t a result of my gender identity, wasn’t a result of my “offense”, and I wasn’t being propositioned. I wasn’t receptive to force, and I couldn’t be overpowered so I was made to feel less than. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn’t intend to be callous and victim blame, but that’s what you’re doing. Maybe try to not do that to others in the future

      • baltakatei@sopuli.xyz
        11·
        5 months ago

        Enemy is vulnerable to ice? Bulk ice cube vending machine. Enemy vulnerable to fire? Gasoline pump. Enemy has a blind spot above them? Party balloon vending machine. Enemy vulnerable to being crushed by 20 ton bulk ice cube vending machine that just transformed from floating party balloon bending machine mid-air?

  • ThePyroPython@lemmy.world
    29·
    5 months ago

    If you’re just after sex and can’t get any via casual hook ups from bars / dating apps / fetish groups then just pay a consenting adult for sex.

    If you’re after genuine human connection and a relationship then you should work on yourself to be someone you’d like to be in a relationship with.

    • boonhet@sopuli.xyz
      28·
      5 months ago

      Literally if you’re nice to me I’ll be attracted to you eventually. I don’t think this is healthy, it’s been abused in the past lol

    • Allero@lemmy.today
      10·
      5 months ago

      Also differs person to person, but I think there is a useful highlight in here.

      Traditionally being the “dominant” gender, men are expected to show signs of attention towards women to “earn” their affection (which the meme is essentially about).

      But when it comes the other way around, it both breaks the social script and gives men something they severely lack - feeling that they matter, that they are worthy of attention, that they can be loved for who they are and not for what they do. And when someone is ready to break traditional norms and actively wants to give you something you never even hoped to receive, it lets the guard down pretty rapidly.

      Overall, the solution to both, in my eyes, is for women to show more of such behavior, normalizing women initiating relationships and showing their affection from the start.

      The reason men often go after women despite being refused is that culture often mixes “no as no” and “no as playful yes”. If women would be casually able to initiate relationships, signals would get much clearer, sparing everyone a ton of discomfort and allowing to actually build the culture of consent. Also, there would be less space for manipulation through abusing people’s needs.

    • Annoyed_🦀 @lemmy.zipEnglish
      8·
      5 months ago

      Except the output can be either “i think you like me” or “i think you’re trying to sell me something or take advantage of me”.

  • psivchaz@reddthat.com
    23·
    5 months ago

    Nah I think it’s a pretty simple algorithm still: don’t be weirder than you are attractive. It’s just that there’s really wildly varying ideas on what’s weird or attractive.

        • WalrusDragonOnABike [they/them]@reddthat.com
          3·
          5 months ago

          There’s weird and then there’s things like mildly (or sometimes majorly) creepy, offputting, or awkward to converse with, which might also be called weird (but I think would be better served with more accurate language, although some of those might be considered negative enough that you might want a euphemism if you aren’t certain). But even if you are just normal weird, your weird might just not jive with someone else’s interests. Like, if you’re just really really into professional Cricket and from the US, I’d think that’s weird, but like not interesting.

    • Ephera@lemmy.mlEnglish
      7·
      5 months ago

      Human beings can have tastes in their partners that go beyond a one-dimensional weird vs. attractive…

      • psivchaz@reddthat.com
        14·
        5 months ago

        To be clear, I’m not using attractive here to mean “physically beautiful” but instead “possessing qualities the other person wants in a partner.” Weird was a word choice for humor but I was essentially saying, “have more attractive qualities than unattractive qualities.” While recognizing that what one person finds unattractive, another might find attractive, and vice versa. By definition, simplifying a complex interaction of human wants and desires into one dimension, rendering it intentionally useless as advice, for the sake of trying to be funny.

        • Ephera@lemmy.mlEnglish
          4·
          5 months ago

          Ah, in that case, I got poe’s-lawed. There’s just teenagers out there, who have not yet formed such a taste and assume others have not either, so may genuinely assume they’re just supposed to be the most physically beautiful and non-weird to rake in a boy-/girl-/enbyfriend. Well, and some of those teenagers even make it into adulthood without taste…

  • Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world
    14·
    5 months ago

    What if I just want a small bag of pretzels that are overly priced, and likely stale? Can I still have sex with the vending machine to get those?