or even just… what cops in the U.S. do to any minority.
Had a co-worker today try to be like “extra-legal executions just aren’t American” and I was like “welllll we sure seem to love doing them, especially against anyone with a skin color other than white.” Topic changed pretty quickly after that.
Or detention centers, prison and jail conditions have been absolutely disgusting in the US since forever.
I agree, the detention centers are abhorrent, but prison rape has been used as a fucking joke since I’ve been alive, and that’s just the tip of the iceberg. None of the jerk off politicians calling out these camps has done a fucking thing about the same shitty conditions that persist in their own districts to this very day.
detention centers, prison and jail
Private ones are a gold mine with the government handing people over as slaves.
I’ve got a folder on my computer documenting countless extra-legal executions by American law enforcement I could find. Videos, articles, documentaries, the whole shebang. Anyone shocked by this and saying it can’t happen here is being wilfully ignorant at this point.
If OP thinks those conversations haven’t been had, they are living in blissful ignorance.
I think the target audience for that tweet are the Obama worshipping, white, upper middle class, suburban Democrats. This country has done a lot of fucked up shit under Reagan, Clinton, W, Obama, Trump, Biden, and again now Trump. I’m not sure about HW Bush, but he use to head the CIA so…
The audience is really anyone who continues to feel even a scintilla of patriotism for this shithole.
Don’t confused patriotism with nationalism. Nationalists are rooting for ICE and Trump and all of those asshats. Nicole Good and Alex Pretti, and the many others out there still, are all Patriots.
Edit: I misspelled Alex Pretti’s name. My sincerest apologies.
As someone who knows the history of this country patriotism is barely distinguishable from nationalism.
Nationalism is the ideology that a certain people should have a state for themselfes.
Patriotism is the love for one’s state, but that state may have one or more people in it.
Which is why it doesn’t make sense to me, since I hate states in general and the United States specifically.
Right I see. In case you happen to be interested, Hannah Arendt suggested a system of federated councils which I find interesting. I’m not an expert on it, but there are some essays about it like this.
Thanks!
Fundamentally there are two kinds of nationalism: civic and romantic. Civic nationalism is about people adhering to a society’s set of laws and values. Romantic nationalism, also known as blood and soil nationalism, incorporates those concepts of birthright and bloodlines as important to one’s status in a nation.
The United States was a major pioneer and proponent of the civic kind, defying the traditional romantic nationalism that grew out of Europe. Despite our historical misgivings it’s an important difference.
Pure fantasy.
I don’t even like society’s laws and values, though.
So leave.
I would but there’s nowhere without a country to go to
“Have you tried just not being a mutant?”
Go where? It’s not like it was when Ellis Island was running. Anybody who immigrated through there would be an illegal immigrant today. Any Americans today whose parents or grandparents went through there are anchor babies who should be deported alongside the rest of their family under the current regime’s stance on immigration.
And it’s not any easier today to immigrate elsewhere. Unless you’re rich or have a degree that makes you a valuable commodity, most countries want nothing to do with you.
It is a meaningless distinction.
Patriotism is defined as “love of country”, yes, but also “devotion to the welfare of one’s compatriots”. I personally believe there is nothing more patriotic than doing everything possible to root out a corrupt and harmful government.
I actually think the USA is a beautiful place and I want to protect it from those who would destroy it. The word you’re thinking of is jingoism, which is honestly a serious problem here
So patriotism is just mutual aid + nationalism.
Why not just skip the last step? After all, the things I like about America would exist even if the nation doesn’t.
I think they’re talking about national socialism.
Ok, so if someone is not American, you don’t care about their welfare?
If no, thats internationalism, the opposite of patriotism, if yes, you see why we have trouble distinguishing yall from fascists, right?
I never said that? The difference is as an American citizen I actually have some say in the welfare of Americans but by no means mistake me for a nationalist. I think you may need to touch up on the difference between patriotism and nationalism
Patriotism is just nationalism for people who haven’t grappled with the reality of patriotism. The core is still juxtaposing human worth and real estate.
I see what you’re getting at, and perhaps my definition of patriotism is more wistful than the reality of it, but I’ve always thought of patriotism as similar to family. You’re more devoted to them because you are closer to them and there’s a certain want to preserve that alongside the places where it happened, y’know? And just like family, sometimes you have to override that devotion when the relationship becomes too toxic to maintain.
I feel like that’s where I’m at with the US. I’ve always been a naturalist at heart and I adore the landscapes of the country in particular, but it’s like a toxic parent. I try my best to pursue reform but I’m nearing a point where I’ll just have to leave and cut my losses. But it is hard because I legitimately do love this country, just…not the government or the people who run it.
The problem ain’t just the Trump administration, it’s systemic and I wish more people here understood that. I just think it would be better for the whole world if the US could get its shit together instead of every person with a moral compass abandoning it to its inevitable doom and the subsequent suffering of everyone too screwed by the system to leave.
I care about the welfare of every living breathing human, but tbh I think fixing the US (however that’s done) would benefit a hell of a lot of people in a whole lot of places. This country’s global military presence is so pervasive and damaging, it’d be nice to put a stop to it.
If the want to truly fix this place makes me not patriotic, so be it, but I’ve always seen that as the definition of patriotic. Maybe I’m just naive tho
Worshipping Obama?
I seen you’ve made the common logical error of assuming the democrats worship their leaders. That’s something left wing and right wing extremists do in equal parts but everyone in between, is absolutely not worshipping any poltical leaders.
He was popular and his excellent oratory skills induced people that liked him to like him more personally
Sooo… the vast majority of Democrat voters? I know we’re all pretty big lefties here, but I’ve never met a single Democrat voter out in the real world who didn’t think Obama was the perfect president who did absolutely nothing wrong. My father in law - who has a degree in political science - keeps a photo of Obama in his wallet at all times along with pictures of his family members.
Sure, plenty of people have started to come to the realization that our soldiers are not heroically staving off evil abroad, but they’re still a tiny fraction of the American population as a whole.
Some people understand that the world is imperfect.
Just have to look at the country’s history. This is business as usual, it’s just now affecting the moderates.
You are talking about people who got lied to all their lives when they where kids.
There’s only so far one can claim ignorance as an excuse. I blame it on a mentality in the USA of people having such bad experience in public education that they “don’t want to learn no more.” The desire to question and expand one’s knowledge was ground away. As well it was easier to live in ignorance before the internet. Now it feels more of a choice.
These days? Sure. But back then it was a much different country. And a lot of solders came back as liberals, but according to lemmy they deserve to die anyway
Not all of lemmy does, but there’s some out spoken people I’ve seen I disagree with.
Most the people posting here sure seem to be.
They we’re not that stupid when they left. They chose team murder willingly, that’s not something you can just shed like so.
It’s the only way to have any kind of social mobility in the US. Do you realize how many lbgtq and minorities end up joining? This shit isn’t simple.
And that on top of all the lies and brainwashing
Ah, so murder is okay as long as you’re part of certain groups? Or is just being poor enough? Lower middle-class? Or is it a point system where you get enough and are excused so LGBT middle-class are still good people but a middle class straight man is a murderous monster?
You described most of lemmy. Not a person here has met a solder or had to deal with not having health care or not having any options of social mobility.
They want us to fight a revolution without anyone who can fight. And apparently Pretti deserved to die for helping fascists
Yes, the target audience is definitely not the actual fascists who are supporting the brownshirts and their actions.
All the way back to Washington.
Thank you for the knowledge. I wasn’t aware this concept existed, but it explains a lot.
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It works the same way with demographics as well.
Colonize a place and eventually you make allowances and permit some sort of “very strict” immigration from the colonized places. “The Goods Ones” and a few politicians that carrier water for you. But once you’ve broken the seal, it’s a slippery slope. Not too long after that you have “natives” who have squandered or never even had generational wealth that was the proceeds of colonialism seeing how they’ve been matched or out-classes by another group, and start to feel loss aversion.
Also works with foreign wars, as they require collaboration with a side in that war. Suddenly you have translators and local staff and spies and politicians and sudden spouses of soldiers, all legitimately asking for a taste of what they and their family suffered for (often quite a bit more than the foreign fighters, who sat in a tent directing things).
My cousin was aNavy F16 pilot who got a medal for dropping the most bombs on Syria. I casually asked him what it felt like to be responsible for so much death and broken families and he looked at me like his brain was shorting out.
Homeboy chooses not to think about it or what he’s done, I don’t think Id like your cousin simply for that alone.
Not to take away from your story, but the USN flies F18s and F35s, the F16s are all USAF.
It’s a very, very common mistake, especially with the “teen” fighters. The fact that movies and TV often get it wrong by inserting a model of one aircraft and claiming it’s another doesn’t help.
The phrase “you can tell that’s not an F-18 because it’s shaped exactly like an F-16” has been said more than once at my house.
Some people can separate pushing a button from pulling a trigger and feeling recoil.
we call them sociopaths
No, I yelled about what we did in Iraq too. A lot of us did. Listen to Ashes of the Wake by Lamb of God.
Unfortunately, you alone are not “most Americans”.
For every person against their terrorists leaving the country, 1000 thanked them for their service and gave them a free haircut.
The 2008 election was most Americans and while it wasn’t solely about Iraq war it was resoundingly unpopular
Fascism is colonialism turned inward
Imperial boomerang.
I don’t have one of those. I have an ex-marine friend, who I chastised when he originally signed up I remember I joked “If you die in combat I’m going to kill you.” because he was basically my best friend at the time. He came from an extremely poor family.
He ended up (unwillingly) being assigned to being a MP, and ended up never shooting or bombing a soul. He was just agonizingly bored for hours and hours (He hoped for bar fights to break out just to fill the time). Hes now a union rep for a private security company and he hates all of his co-workers because he tells me they’re almost all [redacted] racist assholes (hes half black).
uhh im pretty sure everyday they just sat around base bored as fuck and jerking off. real life isnt a call of duty game people 😂
And yet more than a hundred thousand Afghani people died. I’m glad your trip was uneventful.
Shock and awe and civil unrest also took lives. The US gov’t at whole deservesbthe blame, and everyone in the military sure. But the indiscriminate murdering of civilians in the street was not common. US troops actually had rules of engagemrnt
You don’t have to murder civilians to humiliate, dehumanize and diminish them. You just have to disrespect them and show them they are powerless. Which both ICE and US military do.
My own experience was that we took our boots off and helmets off when entering homes to meet with village elders. We did not talk to nor break customs around interactions with their women. I built wells to give communities water, ensured they had cooking and fuel oil, repaired infrastructure, and I placed my body over a family to shield them when the house I was in was getting shot at.
There were 237 casualties on my battalion, but by the end of our tour the place that was mired in firefights every day became peaceful enough that the press could walk about with officers and not even wear body armor.
We played soccer with kids, gave out food, ran electricity to homes, and made the best of what we could.
I have done humanitarian aid for NGOs in the years since and worked on mission trips. Neither experience has come close to the magnitude of elevating community needs as my time in the military did for those we were trying to help.
Just my own personal experience, but felt it was worth sharing.
Thank you.
Tell me you weren’t there without telling me 🙄
That’s not really accurate, the experience of an infantry soldier doing foot patrols in Afghanistan is completely different than someone who lived in a giant base in Iraq that had hiphop night and taco bell and never left it.
Sometimes they were so bored that they tortured and raped people. And made photos of it for others to enjoy
regular civilians have done that too, am i gonna suggest you do that stuff? you are a regular civilian right?
im not saying the military hasnt done that stuff im saying the vast majority of members have probably never seen combat and more probably never even left base
“Everyone else is doing it too” is not a justification for rape…
Also do you have sources for that “regular civilians too” part? Because even if Shariah is a problematic system, it’s pretty fucking strick about rape/zina.
talking about any citizen in any country
Oh my bad for misunderstanding that part.
It just feels fucked when soldiers doing it were never held accountable, and knew that they were never going to be held accountable.
i agree that part is disgusting
Internet historical moment:
In this thread, a conflct almost occurred, but the result was reasonable discussion instead of a flame war.
Can confirm, was a fobbit.
Most ICE officers start at the office, are their paycheck justified to you?
whataboutism
Poor reading comprehension.
why are u making fun of my wage
Ok this joke was actually funny lmao.
Easily proven true by endless apologia for US military members. When Russians do it, the are orc, when Americans do it, they were poor and needed healthcare.
It hadn’t occurred to me before your comment - they don’t want us to have Medicare For All because then the biggest and best benefit of going into military service would be available to every citizen. Or that’s surely one of the MANY horrible reasons they continue to fuck us on healthcare.
The military pipeline shuts down when good pay, housing, healthcare, etc. are provided to the proletariat.
It’s worse than that. Much like the corporate, “middle class” white collar structure depends on keeping people too indebted to ever really have power or freedom to negotiate for fairness, the military also depends on underpaying and overworking its people. They have to provide that same level of inadequacy, and then, make not getting it even more unbearable.
When you start to look at the math, a lot of the previously incomprehensible decisions of the government start to make sense. Why is abortion illegal? Because given free choice, poor people stop reproducing at levels needed to maintain the slave wage labor when they can’t afford the basic necessities to raise a family. Or more specifically, women do… you can find a willing sperm donor, but the mom gets told by society don’t have a baby you can’t afford, and does exactly that. And then they trot out a whole “God doesn’t like this” moral argument, all while happily looking the other way when it’s clear a bunch of their leaders party fucked kids on an offshore island.
You double standards and cope, the American way
Orcmerica
The military is a social program.
They need the poors to fight their wars and work on their factory floors.
Ask a black person that has grown up in the USA, ask how free they have felt before even all this. I had one break it down for me and it started the trek to changing my view of the USA as well as political positioning. We’ve always been like this from inception, just it’s hitting close to home now the moderate is feeling the pain.
I’d like to think that some of us vets are aware of that
Imperial boomerang is smacking the US right in the head
100% It’s about time Americans read Discourses on Colonialism by Aime Cesaire, and suddenly, everything will tragically make sense
some of us grew up the children of natives and/or minorities
welcome to the party I guess
Yes and no. American military personnel absolutely murdered innocent civilians in Iraq, Afghanistan, Nicaragua, Panama, Vietnam, Korea, Germany, Italy, Japan, …
But not every one, not every day, not multiple times a day.
I know this sounds like “not all X are Y,” and to some extent sure, but some mechanic or cook or logistics nerd who never touched a trigger after Basic isn’t a murderer like the shit bag who killed Good or Pretti or the others is.
But they still supported the institution no? Hitler’s cook can make the same claim
Any cog in a looking machine is a killer, even if it isn’t a bullet.
And neither were drafted.
Why go so far? Hitler’s only confirmed kill in WWII was Hitler, great guy by their logic. Or not so great because he shot the great pacifist leader Hitler.
i think the “countless civilians every day” was more meant to be a reference to the total deaths per day by the hands of the american forces, not every single soldier individually. poorly worded, but it is a tweet, so thats kind of expected.
