FYI they are very fucking small nowhere near as big as in this image. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fig_wasp
Forcing her way through the ostiole, the mated mature female often loses her wings and most of her antennae. To facilitate her passage through the ostiole, the underside of the female’s head is covered with short spines that provide purchase on the walls of the ostiole.
In depositing her eggs, the female also deposits pollen she picked up from her original host fig. This pollinates some of the female flowers on the inside surface of the fig and allows them to mature. After the female wasp lays her eggs and follows through with pollination, she dies.[15]
After pollination, there are several species of non-pollinating wasps that deposit their eggs before the figs harden. These wasps act as parasites to either the fig or possibly the pollinating wasps.
As the fig develops, the wasp eggs hatch and develop into larvae. After going through the pupal stage, the mature male’s first act is to mate with a female - before the female hatches. Consequently, the female will emerge pregnant. The males of many species lack wings and cannot survive outside the fig for a sustained period of time. After mating, a male wasp begins to dig out of the fig, creating a tunnel through which the females escape.[16]
Once out of the fig, the male wasps quickly die. The females find their way out, picking up pollen as they do. They then fly to another tree of the same species, where they deposit their eggs and allow the cycle to begin again.
If you look at the detail in the ghosty wasp, it’s clear that it’s just an edited image of a wasp pasted onto a fig
I wonder where they got that image from…
The first result for a fig wasp in a search engine? Nah, that’d be too obvious!
I went and looked that up on my own and I could’ve just clicked into the comments?!
When i came to the post there were no comments to quell my worries so i had to check and share what i found :D
nowhere as big as in this image
Yeah when they’re alive, but everyone knows you grow larger when you become a ghost
Yes however it’s a ghost wasp. It can take whatever phantom size it damn well pleases
This is interesting. Regarding a sentence:
Allow them to mature
Does it mean the figs cannot mature without the wasp ? Does it mean that each ripe fig has been visited by a wasp ?
Yes exactly. They are both dependent on each other in that way.
And to add on to that, figs are super important food trees in the tropics, because they are the only trees that produce fruits all year around. (Because they have to, otherwise the fig wasp population couldn’t sustain itself.) So many animal species are also dependent on the steady food source of fig trees (btw most look very different from the common fig tree, Ficus carica).
I mean, a fruit with seeds is formed from a flower after pollination. It’s just that on the figs, the flower is apparently inside the unripe fruit.
Not much of a life. Larvae can already be argued to be the main stage of life in many insects, as they get to chill around and munch on plants for ages, while adults have to fly somewhere, shag, lay eggs and croak. With these wasps, the adult male has things way more straightforward for him, and the female seems to not even get to enjoy the larval stage.
Most commercially and home grown produced figs are self-pollinating, only a few wild fig species require wasps to pollinate them. So most people will only ever see wasp-free figs.
Oh thank god.
I know commercial farming is usually terrible, but this bit just seems like a win
Mostly it’s commercial animal farming that is heinously immoral. The big problems with commercial crop farming is the change to landscape (and therefore ecosystem) and reduction of native species and diversity due to farming of one specific species. These can be mitigated (if humans cared), obviously the animal farming problems too, but the animal cruelty is way more evil, and harder to fix institutionally.
I’m pretty sure about these things, but I am not an expert on these specific matters. Never trust some rando as a source. Always do your own research. And even then be careful…… we live in some weird ass times
Though i once saw a bug crawl out of a ripe fig, just as i was about to eat it.
Better than finding half a bug in the fig after your first mouthful
It was a hell of a surprise when I cut open a peach and the pit was smaller and softer than usual and it split in two in my hands and a little slightly drowsy looking winged ant crawled out of one of the halves and started walking around on the counter. Little guy must have had such a long journey. I don’t know how the hell they got INSIDE the pit.
How can people not believe in basic evolution when we have created self-pollinating figs
Apart from the cultivar part, I don’t think that’s true. Apparently even Aristotle has spoken about fig wasps (without really understanding what they are or do of course). So maybe there are some cultivars that are self a pollinating now, but it seems like all non-cultivated fig trees are dependent on this kind of pollination. And btw, there aren’t a “few” wild species, there are over 850 of them!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive_coevolution_in_Ficus?wprov=sfla1
Ah btw, ground coffee literally has ground bugs in it. To the point, that some people get allergic to it.
Everything we eat has allowable amounts of bugs, it’s everwhere.
High Protein Coffee
at some point, we’ll probably be eating bug flour on purpose for sustainability reasons
When do the bugs enter the coffee, and does me grinding my own coffee change anything?
Its specifically cockroaches they are talking about and ground coffee. If you grind your own beans and don’t see any cockroaches or bugs, then your coffee is roach free.
Humans get allergies to cockroaches really easy. Living in cockroach infested areas will eventually create allergies, people who handle cocraches get allergies, it’s not a question of if it’s a question of when.
So if you have developed cockroach allergies you risk going into anaphylactic shock if you go anywhere where ground coffee is in the air like a gas station or coffee shop. If you aren’t griding your own beans, there is some roach in your bean soup.
I had no idea allergies or cockroaches worked like that and I was better off beforehand.
That’s like being allergic to Florida. The more I think about it, that’s a healthy body response!
I’ve heard cockroach have a smell?
No idea, they skeeve me out. Maybe they smell a bit like ground coffee.
I mean I personally haven’t smelled one. One of my elementary teachers had a bunch of them though and they do smell. Just never went up to take a whiff.
I forgot some details, but there were articles about it years ago, can just google it. And as far as i remember, bean coffee (self-ground or automat) has way less bugs.
Yum!
This post is informative, horrifying, and indeed very, very spoopy.
This is why fig newtons taste like delicious hate
I use them when I need to channel the ghosts of 1000 angry wasps.
No, that’s just the sugar. Someone decided figs weren’t sweet enough and that they should add sugar to them.
hey I think you might be allergic to fig newtons
TIL figs aren’t vegan
I’m a vegan, although not super strict. But I knew some terror vegans who do not consider vigs vegan.
The definition of “vegan” differs. Like, I don’t like products that had a nervous system. So technically I could eat oysters. But some vegans consider oranges not to be vegan because there might be an animal product in the pesticides used on oranges. Some claim they only use plant based products, but they get mad when I ask them about fungi, as their cell structure looks more like an animal cell than a plant cell (I love to make terror vegans mad).
Being vegan means you buy products which fit your idea of being vegan.
And sadly for some it means you need to be a fucking asshole to anyone you meet.
Regarding your last paragraph: that’s unrelated. There are also lots of insufferably vocal meat eaters who feel personally attacked when someone else doesn’t religiously stuff themselves with meat every meal.
I know zero (0) vocal vegans but 3 meat eaters who make a point on hating vegans and sometimes make it sound like they eat extra meat to spite vegans.
One of them once said to me a restaurant can only be good if it has no vegetarian options.
Someone has never tried falafel…
Yeah, I usually don’t say anything, unless it’s unaoidable and then I usually just say I don’t eat all that much meat.
Most will leave it at that, but I’ll happily answer. I don’t really want to yuck people’s yums, and the food industry is a bit of a special interest of mine.
Advertising is one hell of a drug. Everybody running around eating bacon and butter, and beef tallow, and haven’t had a gram of fiber, getting colon cancer at forty.
Candidly, I think your vocal vegan is like your radical feminist, or social justice warrior, or diversity hire: mostly made up.
meat eaters who feel personally attacked when someone else doesn’t religiously stuff themselves with meat every meal.
Oh, do tell.
I live in Bavaria. There are multiple politicians who don’t get tired to performatively eat sausages and try to make laws that mandate calling oat milk “oat drink” and vegan burgers/schnitzel/… anything else. As if anyone would ever get confused by that. There’s a common joke that they should rename “scouring milk” to “scouring drink” otherwise people get confused!!!
The milk thing though. If it didn’t come from a mammal it isn’t milk, it’s a milk substitute. But milk of magnesia is another traditional thing which isn’t milk
Word meaning depends on usage. People call it “oat milk”, so it’s oat milk.
By that logic it should be “peanut butter substitute” as well
Toothpaste is not made from teeth?!
But do they realize all atoms eventually cycle through the ecosystem?
I’m sure all carbon atoms were part of animal at some point. I guess your fake vegans are just molecular vegans and not atomic vegans.
Hahaha next time I meet one who is starting a discussion to fish (pun intended) for something to trigger on, I now have the perfect comeback 😎
“you’re just a molecular vegan, not an atomic vegan, you’re just a poser”
Veganism are the consumption practices of people advocating for animal liberation. It’s not just about diet but also leather jackets/zoo visits etc. It’s not like being part of an animal that imbues the individual molecules with some mystic energy that renders them off limits, it’s that 99.99% of the time that obtaining these molecules in sufficient quantities requires overstepping boundaries of consent if not outright murder/slavery.
But I would consider scavenged meat for instance vegan, I still wouldn’t because meat gives me the ick now, but I don’t see how it is contrary to animal liberation (provided it doesn’t disrupt other animals mourning rituals or something similar). Or rescued sheep still require shearing. It’s not as brutal as farmers shearing and obviously not done with the wool in mind but rather the sheep. So the sheep are typically shorn(?) sooner than enslaved sheep and not as close to the skin, making “vegan wool” quite a bit harder to work with, but I would consider socks made out of that wool vegan.
That is one definition of vegan, and you seem to be happy living by it. But others might have other definitions. A good chunk does not even share your motivation for being vegan, there are plenty of religious practices, dietary reasons, ecological concerns… That doesn’t diminish your definition of it, but that is something to keep in mind when talking about other people.
No this is what veganism is. Veganism goes back to the Vegan Society and it’s fight for the rights of non-human animals. Many people claim to be vegan without actually being vegan and I will not be diluting the definition. Veganism is at it’s core about animal rights. There are plenty of reasons to go with a plant-based diet. A plant-based diet is part of veganism, but they are very much not the same thing. If someone claims to be vegan but still goes to the zoo or buys pets they did not understand what veganism is.
Edit: here is the vegan societies definition
“Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.”
I’m just saying this specific fruit has a literal animal inside of it
All fruits have that, if you enhance your view enough. Put any fruit under a microscope and it’s crawling with creatures.
Where do we draw the line? Seems like it’s impossible not to eat an animal
Also depends on whether you consider fungi an animal of a plant. As their cell structure resembles more of animal cells than plant cells. And fungi are everywhere. Humans, animals and plants would all die if fungi would seize to exist. They are in our body, create our food and medicine, they are the cycle of life as they break down dead tissue, they feed plants and trees. The oldest living organism is a fungus. They are what keep us all alive, they are basically mother earth. And we eat that. Seeing The Last Of Us suddenly makes a lot of sense. Revenge of the fungi.
Idk isn’t that like saying all animal pollinated plants are not vegan?
Well, this one’s got a literal animal inside of it… Is all I’m saying
I guess it depends on if people think roadkill is vegan; the dead wasp is part of the life cycle of the wasp/fig symbiosis so its going to die well before humans intervene.
Imo the argument could be made that by clearing land for vegetables there’s a large reduction in habitable natural environments. This results in things dying that normally wouldn’t. Especially true when you consider pesticides.
So is the problem the dead bug in the fig or the dead bug outside, say, an apple?
I’ve only been vegan for eight years. I really don’t know what I’m talking about. I’ve never really researched it. I just don’t need animal products. But it seems like eating anything that was an animal or has an animal in it isn’t vegan
Fuck goose down
And I mean, where do we draw the line? There’s microscopic organisms that we kill all the time
Imo, don’t think about it too hard. I think it makes more sense to eat creatures based on a mix of survivorship curve and whether they are intelligent enough to need to be confined.
If you’re building infrastructure more to contain animals rather than keep other ones out, imo that’s the pivot point.
Idealized survivorship curves:
Type 1 and 2 are easy no’s. Type 3 is generally fine as long as its not like an adult turtle or octopus. Type 3 organisms are probably going to get eaten a lot and early in nature while its rare for the adults to get eaten.
This one doesn’t either, it’s just a ghost.
Eating ghosts is vegan
I’m a level five vegan. I don’t eat anything that Casts a shadow
They are most fruit require insect pollination, as long there is no forced labor or murder it’s still vegan
Depends on the vegan you’re talking to.
Wild figs may be but as soon as you’re cultivating fig varieties that require the fig wasp, you are artificially increasing the wasp population specifically to perish, in order to sustain human horticulture. Much like honey or milk, the fact you don’t eat the animal’s flesh might still defy the spirit of ‘no animal exploitation’. Most pollinators do not explicitly perish as part of pollination; figs are one of the foods vegans may disagree on.
The good news is that there are a small number of fig varieties that can be fertilised without the wasp (either by hand, or self-pollinating clones). In a lot of countries this is the variety that may be grown because importing wasps could be ecologically dangerous.
Wild figs may be but as soon as you’re cultivating fig varieties that require the fig wasp, you are artificially increasing the wasp population specifically to perish, in order to sustain human horticulture.
That’s still different to animal exploitation. Veganism are the consumption practices of people advocating for animal liberation. This is not contrary to that, “milk” and “honey” are produced by the animals for a specific reason, namely their young. Even if it were possible to obtain them without harming the animal (and there isn’t, both require animal death if they are to be produced in consumer quantities) there still is the problem of consent. It is clear that bees and cows under normal circumstances do not want to give away their milk/honey. The wasp however is already dead, it is not harmed by eating the fig and it’s consent is no longer part of the equation.
If the fig cultivation reaches a level where the wasps have to be kept under circumstances similar to the bees then yes I wouldn’t consider the figs that require these wasps to be vegan.
So vegans could eat unemployed animals that die of natural causes?
scavenging is considered yucky but I don’t see any reason to consider it unethical per se unless it disrupts other animals mourning rituals
Vegan can eat meat produced in labs.
Not completely true. There’s a tick which can make you allergic to animal cell structures, basically making you vegan. So lab grown meat would still be a no no. For me, I want to eat plant (and fungi) based products so I don’t want lab grown meat (although I would like to try it once). I think lab grown meat is amazing, because people who desperately want to eat meat can do so without feeding the fucked up meat industry. Less livestock means less chance on virus mutation, so less chance of pandemics. I think this is the most important reason to reduce global livestock.
Your point about the tick is correct, but I’m not sure if that counts as veganism? Theres a significant difference between vegetarianism and veganism beyond the diet itself.
Vegetarianism is a dietary restriction around consuming flesh, whereas veganism is a philosophical restriction around animal suffering/exploitation. But even that philosophy can have different interpretations (what counts as suffering? What counts as exploitation?).
Thus vegans having a reputation of being inflexible, because eating nonvegan is a violation of their personal principles; whereas most vegetarians won’t care what you eat so long as you still provide something they can eat.
Therefore I’d expect vegetarians don’t eat lab meat (it’s flesh) but many vegans may (if they believe it is developed ethically, and doesn’t incentivise unethical practice).
But IMO both of the terms are pretty absolute and inflexible. An increasingly large number of people ate ‘vegan except for X’, or vegetarian [98]% of the time’, and we don’t have words to distinguish them from those who don’t plan to reduce animal products at all. I’d like if there was, to encourage people to have more varied diets without seeing it as ‘all or nothing’. Significantly reducing animal intake is still an environmental win even if they can’t eliminate it.
First of, vegetarianism means not eating meat while veganism means not using animal products including eggs, honey, milk, leather, wool, etc. As someone else noted, apparently Wikipedia and other sources state there’s a difference between vegan diet and vegan philosophy. Although imo if you just do not eat animal products but still use leather you’re just following a plant based diet while not being vegan. Like some pro athletes, they have a plant based diet just because of sports and health, not because they care so much about animals and/or the environment.
But in the end it’s just a matter of labeling. I don’t really care about that, or whether people become full vegan. A sling as people become more aware of what they consume and reduce it a bit, that’s already a win imo. People should find the way which works the best for them.
I’m would be a full vegan if not for one thing: cheese. I have barely no non-sugar alternatives to put daily on my bread so I still consume some cheese (which technically isn’t even vegetarian). This works for me. Anyone who doesn’t like it can suck it, I do so much but I need this thing in my life.
Some vegans might eat lab grown meat because it would fit in their life philosophy, some wouldn’t. It all depends on why people chose to be vegan and what they are comfortable with.
I have no interest, as since I became vegan my meals have become so much more flavor rich as I’m using more herbs and spices and create my meals with more care. I’m fine with what I eat. But I think it’s a nice development as meat eaters can continue what they do but more responsible and ethical.
Much agreed. Humans are the only species were aware of that can make ethical considerations in their diet, and there are so many ways to do that.
My preference is towards sustainably and environmentalism, as limited by my income bracket. So I love mushrooms, love vegetarian dishes, eat in season; but still eat eggs, dairy, and cheap meat for affordable protein. But I prefer sustainable farming practices, and using low-cost cuts like sausagemeat that might otherwise be wasted. I can’t afford most plant-based alternatives because they’re considered ‘lifestyle’ luxuries, so I have to have whey protein instead of pea, etc. But eggs are cheap enough I can splurge on free range with SPCA cert, and I love me a sweet-potato-mushroom burger patty if I can afford one. Nut mince is also great for nachos.
This means I support insect farms for future protein sources, since they use far less resources than even plant-based alternatives and are much cheaper and more land efficient. That makes me different from most vegetarians and vegans it seems, but I don’t consider our philosophies to be in conflict. Ultimately we share a common goal in maintaining more ethical diets that limit the harm we cause, and there are several approaches to do that. Every step we can affordable maintain is progress to a kinder and more sustainable world.
Were you to try poisoning me to make me stop eating meat, I would eat fish, and birds
Birds and fish don’t have meat?
They don’t have the same sugars in their blood as mammals, the tick borne allergen that makes people allergic to meat only makes them allergic to mammal meat, and really only for a few years
It depends if you consider veganism as a philosophy or a diet. I consider it a philosophy because I do not eat leather yet veganism prohibit its use.
Being vegan means not using animal products. That’s different to a plant based diet. In sports a plant based diet became popular since a documentery on Netflix, but these people aren’t vegan as they do use leather, wool and bees wax for example.
As I said, veganism can be considered a diet or a philosophy. At least that’s what Wikipedia and every online dictionaries say.
I agree with you, but this fruit has a literal animal inside of it
See my comment here https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/19570004
Wait until you find out what fossil fuels are made of
Mostly plant plancton.
Yeah, the point is they are technically not vegan so you have a supply chain issue with everything you consume.
Nitpicky, I know, and of course vegan+fossil fuel based supply chain (as long a I can’t do anything about it) is still good
Mostly plants and plankton?
Are zooplankton vegan?
Would this render figs off limits for vegans and vegetarians? 🤔
No because it’s entirely voluntary on the wasps part
But could the wasp ever really choose not to enter the fig?
It was made for me! This is my fig!
Maybe “voluntary” isn’t the best word in the “free will” sense, but it clearly requires no coercion
Vegetarian is fine, there is no flesh. Vegetarianism is typically a dietary restriction, rather than a philosophical one.
Vegan: it depends. Cultivating figs may be seen as expotation, like bee’s honey is; regardless of the insect’s actual life or wellbeing. Each individual person decides what counts as vegan.
I don’t see the point in this level of specificity, because by eating anything at all you consume fungal spores, tiny mites, microbes etc. Plants are also alive. So there is clearly a line where life is permittably consumed.
If ‘experiencing suffering’ is that line, insects do not seem capable of it, only responding to basic stimuli. I once watched a one trying to eat its own partially severed head, turning it in its front legs while its mouth parts rapidly twitched. It evidently had no comprehension.
Can vegans eat figs?
Ethical vegans want to avoid suffering. If figs cause or experience suffering is a philosophical question.
I had a friend that didn’t eat figs for this reason.
Yeah I have a coworker who avoids certain varieties (many varieties don’t include wasps in the normal lifecycle)
not if they have trypophobia
Yeah sure I’ll eat figs. You don’t eat the fig wasps as they have been eaten by the fig already. If I knew there was a fig wasp still inside, I wouldn’t eat it though.
ffs they won’t eat honey, and that’s only because you’re stealing the fruits of the bees’ labor. I would assume the International Vegan Council outright bans figs with extreme prejudice.
they won’t eat honey, and that’s only because you’re stealing the fruits of the bees’ labor
Not the only reason. For example, an infamous and common practice in the honey industry is to cut off the queen’s wings, ensuring the hive has no choice but to stay there and produce honey.
I’ve never met a vegan who won’t eat figs; figs’ relationship with fig wasps is symbiotic, and yes, excluding fruit on the basis that “eating the fruit of a pollinated plant is exploiting the pollinator” probably far oversteps the “practicable” part of veganism:
Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.
Would you eat honey from a natural hive without these practices?
Good question. I wouldn’t (we’re assuming casual foraging for fun and not a survival situation); it’s still not vegan, but it’d be arguably less unethical on a spectrum.
A con compared to the apiary is that these wild bees aren’t being artificially supplemented by e.g. sugar water; it’s live-or-die for them, and that’s their food. It’s not in me to take that away from them when I don’t have to.
If someone took like a teaspoon of honey (still the lifetime output of about a dozen bees) while giving the bees something greater in return, then I don’t think most vegans would think it’s inherently wrong*, but like any ethical framework, whenever you try to find contrived boundaries, it’s kind of like “okay, but why?” It’s sometimes engaging on the armchair but rarely in practice.
A huge pro compared to the apiary is avoiding, in addition to the physical mistreatment of the bees themselves, the perpetuation of the exploitation. If you one-and-done plunder a hive, that’s not vegan, but you’re not giving money to someone as a way of telling them “thanks, and keep doing this”.
* I’m making a hand-wavey assumption here that you can just do that without pissing off and killing a bunch of bees or smoking them out just so we can have perfectly ideal ethical conditions.
This is more in the “dead worms in the compost make their way into the vegetables we eat” wheelhouse than in the “lets steal these animals labor for their young, risking death and injury to the workers while doing so” wheelhouse
yeah
False. Wasps don’t have souls.
Hornets on the other hand… I’ll see you in hell.
Great. My stomach is now haunted by wasp ghosts. Thanks again 2026.
4 out of 5 doctors misdiagnose the cause of diarrhea because they refuse to believe in ghost wasps.
Not to stereotype, but you of all people should be cool with it, no?
They’re ruining the good ectoplasm I need for gut health.
BIG FIG WASP
Did your god know, insects grow, in my pome?
Woooo!
Haha yes… Die trash.
So that’s why god hates figs
This actually explains the infamous Fig Newton Debacle of ‘92, which my extended family is still divided over.
Dibs on wasp ghosts as my post hardcore band name!
