- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
Many international fans visiting the US for the World Cup have become frustrated by the culture of tipping servers, telling the BBC that tipping fatigue has set in.
England supporter Geoff Pryor said he understood tipping for good service, but he found it “weird” when buying a bottle of water and “they try to get a tip for doing nothing”.
In the US, staff at some restaurants and bars are paid just over $2 (£1.50) an hour, and they expect customers to tip about 20% of the total cost of the bill so they can earn a living.
Frustrations have also been shared by hospitality staff, with one bar owner telling the BBC that many World Cup tourists have been bad tippers.
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This is why no one should ever visit the States for holidays. Lots of better countries to go that don’t have this bullshit.
I never tip, unless i received exceptional service.
Then again i only eat out at venues where I pay up front or self serve, or in places so posch - I actually WANT to tip the staff for providing an outstanding experience.
On the rare occation I am in a venue where tipping is expected and service and experience are not phenomenal I do not tip and happily send any staff to fuck right off if approached - that sort of establishment SHOULD go under.
You suck for not tipping people who are paid in tips.
You suck for living in a nation that allows employers to use tips to make up a half decent wage.
Yes I have a choice in that matter. I live in a reality of tipped wages and I have solidarity with the people who labor under it
That’s not solidarity in terms of labour. It’s just accepting the status quo, while doing a lip service to the people affected. If you really want to show solidarity, join a union and participate in collective action to improve the working conditions. The more people a union has, the stronger it can get. Worker rights in Europe didn’t come out of the good hearts of politicians or companies.
You fight the system by fighting the system, not punishing people who are even more vulnerable to the cruelty of the system.
Then join a union.
I’m literally in the IWW
Actual clown take
I have solidarity with the people who labor under the system.
Yeah, pay a livable salary and fuck off with begging for money.
You are only harming workers and are an asshole if you withhold tips.
Tell that to the owner and not the staff.
It is not the owner’s fault, it is everyone as a nation, accepting the practice and blaming customers.
It’s very much also the owners. Outsourcing your staff’s salaries to the customer while being able to advertise cheaper prices is an incredible deal for them while dropping all of the responsibility on the customers.
The customers end up paying the extra however you slice it. Be it tips, a non optional gratuity, or baked into the price. Most restaurant margins are surprisingly low, its not like theyre being greedy and hoarding the ‘extra’ money that would otherwise go to servers salary.
The tip passing direct from the customer to the staff prevents it from being taxed 2x, (both sales and income dont get charged on tips) you’d be adding an extra 10% or more on top of the 20% if you moved to to a baked in cost.
You guys are always so worried about your taxes. With the current administration I can see why, I guess. We’re not asking to not pay what we owe, we’re just asking that what we owe be transparent, like in a civilised country.
Why do you give the employer a pass and blame the customer?
I don’t get the employer a pass. But I live in a reality of tipped wages and have had a job like that before. I have solidarity with those workers by helping the make a livelihood. Me not tipping only benefits me and the owner. Not the laborer. It is immoral to withhold the money earned
The employer is the one withholding the money earned, the customer is simply paying the price that is advertised. The employer is the one that is exploiting the cheap labor, and if the labor looks to the customer to fix it it’s not going to work out.
You fight the system by fighting the system, not punishing people who are even more vulnerable to the cruelty of the system.
Employers paying shitty wages are punishing workers, this is the source of your complaint. If workers got a fair wage to begin with, you wouldn’t give a shit about tipping. But employers pay a shit wage and have successfully got people like you to blame and shame customers instead of them. If you think this will resolve by arguing with the customers that aren’t subsiding the wages, well, good luck with that.
Cool story. Good way to have solidarity with workers
No, you suck for accepting and perpetuating a culture where it is necessary. Do the right thing and refuse to go along with it. Insist that all staff are paid livable wages. Petition your state to force the issue if necessary.
Yes because me not tipping is going to end the system. Not tipping only benefits me and the owner. The staff is fucked. Only assholes think their individual lack of tipping with change a system. Systematic change requires a system to change.
Pay your staff properly
I have only read the comments here. I see employers are not paying minimum wages is the problem here.
If minimum wages were paid tipping or not tipping is a question of good service and appreciation and not a question of survival.
Place the blame on the business owners who refuse to pay fair wages to employees. This is a criminal act and customer not tipping is just a question of social politeness.
Minimum wage isn’t enough to live off of in any city.
All you can do is refuse to tip in solidarity with the workers.
No service worker appreciates that crap.
Maybe but their boss appreciates customers handling performance bonuses a lot more.
And apparently in the US they don’t even have to pay them minimum wage so it’s a win/win for management getting to treat their staff like slaves.
Actually no, in most places management DOESNT like it when that happens. If the worker doesn’t get enough tips to make minimum wage they have to pay them that wage.
Put it this way, if they have only had to pay a worker $20 a night for so long it’s almost part of their budget. If all of a sudden they have to pay double or even triple that (or more depending on the state) they they have to cough up way more money than they want and that eats into their pockets.
Don’t get me wrong it sucks for the service worker. Now they are making 1/3 or what they usually do or worse. But it’s not a performance review and the boss isn’t happy about it.
The tipping culture is stupid here and it needs to end, but I would hate to do it on the backs of hard-working people.
If the worker doesn’t get enough tips to make minimum wage they have to pay them that wage.
So you can admit that it’s just subsidizing management but still think tipping isn’t to benefit them.
So you admit they do have to pay minimum wage? (Clearly a foolish way to make a point)
Take what is said and don’t change the message. Doing that weakens your argument.
To your point yes and no. It does NOT subsidize MANAGMENT, if puts money in the pockets of the owner. Clearly you are a fool because you make a point and ignore the specific example that helps your argument. “They don’t like it because they have to then pay the minimum wage.”
You clearly ignore everything I have said and missed the message. It does not benefit management. It benefits the owner.
So you admit they do have to pay minimum wage?
Yes, I took what you said as correct.
I see management as an arm of the bourgeoisie, not as an ally to the proletariat.
As such
. It does not benefit management. It benefits the owner.
This is a distinction without a difference.
Then you are a fool. Managers in these places make about $5 an hour more but do not get tips. Meaning they make less in general and are doing the job of two. Clearly you don’t understand anything about the situation. Stop making an argument you know nothing about because you didn’t even know the rules about minimum wage here.
Go fuck yourself.
Kinda weird that US culture tends to demonize handouts, yet handouts in the shape of tips are expected and you’re a bad person for not providing them.
Aha, but the great old USA love to think it’s a meritocracy, and since tipping is something that was originally merit based, it’s a very American expression. You work a little harder, you get a little extra.
But also, in a uniquely American way, capitalism turned tipping a moral dilemma.
Also, tipping is a way to legalize paying marginalized groups less. It enables a system where young attractive White people make more money for the same work.
Handouts are accepted based solely upon how much money you make.
If you’re poor? You’re a leech on society.
If you’re rich? You clearly know money and you’ll obviously invest that back into the economy and it’ll trickle down to the poor people any minute now.
Handouts to people are demonized.
Handouts to companies are perfectly fine.
Tips get a pass because everyone (at least instinctively) understands it is benefiting the company more than the people officially receiving it.
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Dont visit here. Problem solved.
That’s not happening. Football fans are irrational, they’ll follow their teams anywhere, no matter how bad, even places like qatar or us.
A very simple solution is for restaurants to offer a second all-inclusive version of the menu with taxes and suggested tipping included in the prices. Can’t cost more than a half hour of work and the price of ten printed pieces of paper.
So if you order from the all inclusive menu you are served by a different server who is paid properly?
Same server, but now they get a commission on that check instead of a tip. They get the same 20%, but you now pay an extra 10% in taxes on the higher bill. And youre now their lowest priority table after ordering, because the commission is already locked in
Are Americans really this stupid and brainwashed into thinking this is OK?
What I’m saying is just take the existing price, add the sales tax, add a 15% tip, and show the resulting price to the tourists. Same result, less head math for the tourists.
If you want proper wages for workers, you need unionization.
or how about fuck off with the tips and just pay employees a living wage. I the customer shouldn’t have to cover the gap in your employees wage.
You do realize the customer would pay either way. The prices will just go up to pay those wages (and now you also owe double taxes on it; both the sales taxes and the income taxes will get made up for on the top.)
Most ‘good’ restaurants will likely go to a commission based model, where that same 20% of sales goes to the waiter, but is included in the price, since tips are what motivate servers to upsell. 20% of $150 is beter than 20% of $100.
Without it theres no point in going out of your way to offer an appetizer or cocktail while they wait for the food, since its just creating more work for the same $/hr. Now the restaurant needs to raise prices even more to keep afloat, since sales are down.
And if they do go to commission, now the only thing thats changed is the servers motivation towards the guest. After everything is rung in, they’ve got their 20%; unless theres another sale to be made (a new cocktail, dessert, etc) theres no motivation to check back in until its time to drop the check. Because thats why tips are discretionary: to disincentivize poor service.
Ive seen it pretty much every way. I used to work at a country club that paid high hourly. Ive also been at a hotel where everything was auto grated.
Ive also noticed it traveling in europe. Id find myself deciding between dining in more touristy or more authentic spots depending on the level of care I wanted. Do i go to the bistro, where i wont get a chance to order a second coffee, and no one’s going to refill my water for the hour and a half im sitting for lunch, before someone finally makes eye contact and I can get my check, or do I go to the place in the tourist spot, where ill get everything I need and be out in 45 minutes, because they know I’m a tourist from a tipping country.
Yup. If you’re serious about it, and not just an upset customer, support hospitality workers’ unions.
When I was in the US it was just confusing sometimes. Like I went to this restaurant to order a pizza, to-go. They had a sign outside and the pizza was like 18 dollars, but when you want to pay its more because of tax, and now they also expected a tip. Ok but it’s to go right? So you also tip when getting groceries? The entire system just felt very arbitrary.
Each place has its peculiarities. Bagging groceries and sorting garbage in Germany. Avoiding giving offense when ordering food or coffee in Italy. Etc.
A non insignificant number of owners would steal the money and you would still have to tip. Such is life here.
You make it sound like a third world banana republic…
I remember long ago someone broke down the math for me and it became simple. If the bill is $53.27, for example, then 10% is $5.33, just by moving the decimal over one spot. A quick estimate tells me half of that is $2.50 (5 halved) + $0.15 (33 is close to 30 and that halved), so $2.65-ish. Add them together and 15% is close to $8. 20% is that initial $5.33 doubled to $10.66. Roughly between that is my tip on average service, probably rounded.
… Is that weird written out like that?
no, what’s weird is tipping in the first place. tipping shouldn’t be a fucking thing period
and don’t come at me with the “servers need to make money” then the fucking business should pay them a living wage. if your business can’t survive with paying your employees a living wage, then they don’t deserve to exist. that’s capitalism.
I’m not defending tipping. The business should pay them a livable wage. But if I’m going to go out to eat, which I have occasionally done, I’m not going to lecture the server about capitalism. They’re relying on tips. They get it.
Damn, you’re grumpy, huh?
who said anything giving shit to the servers? the solution to getting rid of tipping culture is to support unions, fair pay, and not going to restaurants that won’t pay their employees. the restaurant owners make it a you vs the server issue. if you don’t tip then the server blames you the customer instead of their boss, and you the customer are upset at the server for being guilted into tipping instead of being upset at the restaurant for not paying the server properly. the solution you can do right now? stop going to restaurants.
i didn’t fucking hire the server, why the hell am i responsible for their pay? i don’t tip the bank teller, or the retail worker.
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Let’s fix this headline.
American’s Confused By Fair Wage Practices of Civilized Countries
The article could start like this:
Some Americans, more specifically those from the socalled “United States”, are confused by fair wages and other basic social norms on civilized countries.
Ci… Civ… Civ-il… Civil-i? Civil-iz? Civil rights? CIVIL RIGHTS COUNTRIES?! Does your country’s ICE know about this???
If there’s a problem, yo, they’ll solve it. Institutionalized racism, no laws to resolve it. ICE ICE baby
Really putting that vanilla in the ICE
Which American?
You know who! It’s the American with the Confused. He owns it!
It is completely out of control. I have been asked to tip at self operated vending machines. WTF?
That’s because vending machines aren’t actually paid at all and rely entirely on tips. Little known fact.
Damn. What a heartless bastard I am.
Stop being a robophobe
Genius.
They’re unconfigured PoS systems. Look at all the different PoS solutions out there. You never know where or when to tap your credit card, hit yes before or after the transaction is initiated. It’s generally smaller vendors not configuring non-out-of-the-box solutions. Simple as that.
Fuck this is a difficult one.
Tipping culture is a throwback to slavery times and is very typical of the predatory nature that exists within employment in the US. The position that customers need to pay a tip because the server needs a liveable wage that isn’t covered by employers and built into law is essentially being held hostage due to an unfair system.
That said, waitstaff depend on this for a liveable wage and by not paying the tip, you’re denying that worker fair income. It’s not their fault directly, it’s the system they are under.
Looking from the outside, it comes back to the same thing; the reluctance of Americans to engage in building a decent society by collectively voting to build that, rather than voting or even not voting at all to take care of themselves. Again, it’s another case of ‘you get out what you put in’. A 60% voter turnout reflects the quality of what’s been elected and makes it easy for bad actors to get what they want, especially when their base does turn out.
To get those things, they need to at least vote and vote for people who will give them the things they want like legislated, decent wages. Sometimes it also means some hardship or compromise. Here, that means wait staff would be giving up the potential of big tips for the benefit of decent wages and perhaps healthcare.
Personally? Of course I’d tip them; I’m in Rome so I’d do as the Romans do and I’m aware that’s their income. I’d also feel like I was held hostage by a shithouse, predatory system brought about by Americans lack of care for their own people though.
I’m in Rome so I’d do as the Romans
You’d own and rape slaves too?
No? So there is a Rubikon that you don’t cross after all?
If I was a tourist in Rome, and the only currency was raping a slave then i wouldn’t visit rome. But if I was visiting Rome and knew that the people serving me food needed to be paid directly because they would otherwise starve and become destitute then i would pay the Roman workers directly as is the custom of Rome.
If they would starve when we don’t give them handouts, they should riot and change the system. Not blame tourists.
paying their exploiters while telling the exploited how to solve their problems. i bet you think rapists are justified when they rape people in revealing clothes
Easy as hell to say when you don’t say to do it yourself. Revolution is bloody and things more often than not end up worse after. Especially with how heavily armed US police forces are
Only the naive would think that a mass riot would somehow make things better.
Yeah and it’s much closer to “I’ll pay a little more to make sure that person can afford to eat today” than, “owning and raping slaves”.
The point of that argument is to give an example on why the other argument does not make sense.
“When in Rome, do as the Romans” is bullshit. No matter the context.
Well, no, don’t go crazy here. Changing some of the behaviour is okay. For example, when I visit foreign countries I try to greet people in their native tongue. When in Brasil during the Carnival I dance on the streets, in Germany in October observe Oktoberfest, when in Zurich on weekend snort cocaine, you know - harmless stuff ;-)
in Germany in October observe Oktoberfest
As a German I could write a lot more about this, but I’ll keep it short:
Please don’t!
So anyone who is underpaid at work should ask customers to pay extra instead of taking it up with their boss? Should grocery store staff start spitting in people’s food if customers dont hand over 20% more money at the checkout?
I’m all for supporting workers and i begrudgingly tip in our broken system most of the time… but i cant stand the entitlement of service staff who get pissed about bad tippers… take it up with your boss…
This is just the rich business owners (who are underpaying their staff) dividing the working class by framing this as the fault of the customer (typically also working class people…)
So now waitstaff are complaining about bad tippers and fighting other workers rather than focusing on the real problem.
It’s been pointed out to me a few times recently that a lot of hospitality staff don’t actually want the system to change as they usually don’t declare their full income from the tips to the taxman.
If they unionise and change things, their whole income becomes taxable, and they feel that they lose.
This seriously undermines the sympathy I have for the staff as a group. The tools for change are right there, but there are enough bootlickers and foolish individualists to poison any attempt at change short of a general strike. (I’m under no illusions as to the inevitable violent government response to such a thing either.)
Ultimately it comes down to; “Either change your system with group action, like everywhere else did, or keep whining about getting stiffed, your choice.”
It’s been pointed out to me a few times recently that a lot of hospitality staff don’t actually want the system to change as they usually don’t declare their full income from the tips to the taxman.
While this is true amongst some, it’s again that minority that finds the really nice places to work.
I’ve done waiter at a tex mex place, my current coworker the same, we talk about the bullshit one has to jump through to be able to pay rent. Working multiple jobs to make ends meet for a job that cuts your hours or has you work a double without any forwarning.
And when it comes to the group action, unfortunately wait staff at the shittiest of places still exist because someone needs money to survive. And if you can get out of the hellhole to a real job, you do it the first chance you can. Doesn’t really give enough time to create group action.
I don’t have an answer for it, we should get rid of tipping. I don’t eat out really at all, that’s my fix. But I’m far far out of the restaurant business now and if I’m back in it then my life has gone absolutely horribly wrong.
Servers in America can work 20-30 hours a week and pretty easily make 40-50 dollars an hour. Very few restaurants can afford to pay their staff that much. These servers aren’t making 5 dollars an hour like everyone thinks. I personally think the most messed up thing about the restaurant industry is the cooks make the least amount of money out of everyone. Sysco reps, delivery drivers, servers, bartenders, owners, they all profit off of the kitchen.
Very few restaurants can afford to pay their staff that much
Most other countries have figured out how to make it work.
What country’s are paying their servers 45 dollars an hour?
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So you agree it’s dumb s fuck that only the last chain, those who carry the food to the table should be tipped
Welcome to the wage slave states of America! Hopefully you get out before you find out how much I.C.E. costs here. Ha!
Seriously don’t come here if you value your safety or your possessions.
Frustrations have also been shared by hospitality staff, with one bar owner telling the BBC that many World Cup tourists have been bad tippers.
Should read:
Frustrations have also been shared by hospitality staff, with one bar owner telling the BBC that many World Cup tourists have been making staff aware that I and other businesses are bad employers.
Well if you travel to the US for the World Cup you’re either ignorant as fuck or you like the direction they’re going and want to sponsor it.
You chose to go. Stay and suffer or leave and get better.
My favorite thing I saw recently in relation to tipping - was this sign at a restaurant about what the minimum wage was and encouraging tipping.
I’m assuming that sign was put up or at least tacitly endorsed by the management.
It’s almost as if they don’t have any agency over what they pay their own workers and they are then shaming customers into making up the difference? WTF?
Of course it was. Tipping is a scam by business owners to have customers pay wages so they don’t have to.
