I have a graduate degree in statistics and use it heavily in my job. I always tell people that mathematicians study math, but statisticians just use math the study data.
To badly paraphrase Mark Twain…“There are lies, damned lies, statistics, and polls!”.
Even the original quote isn’t from Twain. He misattributed it to British PM Disraeli, but the saying originated after Disraeli’s death.
A bit ironic given the quote.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics
Cool info. Thanks!
I don’t think I will ever figure out the order to read these things.
Just… Why? Wouldn’t you want it to be formatted in a way that’s immediately obvious what order to read them?
I used bluesky lately (which i guess uses the same format?) and it looks like so because we are viewing a reply(3) to a post (2) that cite another post (1)
So convenient.
Thanks. I hate it.
Genuine question: what’s confusing about this post?
There are some that are confusingly structured, but this one should be quite obvious
Obvious would be top to bottom. You know, like how every human reads.
For replies, yes. And that is the case. But the first one is a quote, not a reply
And it makes sense to put the reply before the thing they’re replying to.
Same
Terrance Tao is an absolute beast. If you debate him on this you’ll get a rigorous proof back on how you’re wrong.
If statisticians are mathematicians then so are physicists and engineers.
Using math is different from being a mathematician. Mathematicians discover new mathematical principles, not just make use of existing ones.
Are you a programmer if you program programming languages, or a program programming programmer?
This is the difference between Computer Science (a field of mathematics) and Software Engineering (a field of engineering).
I think those are both the same things. Those with a Computer Science degree are typically Software Engineers.
It’s more like a degree in Mathematics (future mathmetocian) vs a degree in Applied Mathematics (future statistician).
People with computer science degrees often work as software engineers but Computer Scientists are not Software Engineers. Computer Scientists are mathematicians. Theoretically you can do pretty good computer science without ever touching a computer - it’s the mathematics of computation, which is much broader than the machines we keep on our desks. Software Engineers are not typically mathematicians.
I say this as someone who is qualified as a software engineer. I would absolutely love to be involved in computer science, but I’m trained for engineering not mathematics.
Ahh “Scientists”, that’s a job title, not a field, so I think we are saying the same thing different ways. 😉
Also a software engineer (aren’t we all, here? Hah), including algorithmic work to optimize the use of languages, but have never contributed to a language directly. But now, you may have ignited something. Hmmmmmm…
Yeah I don’t think this is the burn on statisticians OP makes it out to be. Lots of technical disciplines use mathematics, like… all of them I think? I don’t know of any field that doesn’t incorporate math that isn’t purely artistic.
Also why are dentists catching strays?
Pretty much all art uses math in some form. Usually not a super formal thing but math is everywhere in art. Mostly concerning ratios.
“Statisticians are the dentists of mathematics” like, they do a very specialised job that a generalist would struggle to perform correctly without their level of specialised training, where performing their duties inadequately or forgoiing their services can completely disrupt the function of various area of life/business?
And as everyone knows theorems in statistics are brought to this world by storks.
And by extension, so is a cashier.
Irl they become actuaries. It’s usually applied mathematics and if by mathematician one means someone exploring mathematics alone then this is accurate. CompSci kinda falls half into this and half outside of it.
It reminds me of the statement by Clifford Stoll, (paraphrased) the first time you do something it’s science, the second time you’re an engineer, the third time you’re a technician. link.
In essence most statistician work ranges in the engineer to technician level of mathematics.
In that case probability theorists are the chiropractors of math
Statisticians are somewhere between Sociologists and Psychologists according Mathematicians and between Chemists and physicists according to Statisticians.
Prof Brian Cox once joked that Biology is basically a branch of the Arts
philosophers way to the right of mathematicians saying “oh! I didn’t notice you there”
Between chemists and physicists is where I would place them too, as someone with a physics degree.
i’m an economist (basically advanced statistics with weird assumptions).
I’d rank them macro econ > sociology > psych > micro econ > stats > bio > chem > phys > > > math > > > > > > > > > > philosophy
I like to think of them as accountants. They sure use numbers, but I’m not sure what they’re doing with them is in a’y way shape or form morally acceptable.
Most STEM scientists i know end up doing statistics instead because it’s easier to have a paycheque
Most of them won’t do mathematics research. And since realistically it is quite hard to both innovate in mathematics and in an applied field at the same time, the differentiation is valid.
It’s like the quote by Clifford Stoll. The first time something is done its science, the second time its engineering, the third time its technicians work. Most people in statistics become actuaries and do the math equivalent of being a technician. They aren’t discovering or applying anything new, more so just going through the steps.
You can do a great deal more as a statistician than actuarial work. I’ve got a mathematics degree, but ended up in fatigue design 4 years ago. Engineers tend to have great intuition about physical things, but tend to struggle a little with the theoretical tools.
As a math major who passed all entry exams, spent nearly a year cold emailing and applying it seems more appropriate to steer stats students toward data science at this point.
There are more technician jobs than engineering jobs and there are more engineering jobs than primary science positions. I’m not sure that should surprise anyone. How many pure mathematicians does global society actually need? Not that many. How many farmers or civic engineers or geologist does society need? A lot more than mathematicians.
As someone who has taught both mathematics and statistics in his life the real difference boils down to proof Vs evidence.
The mathematician is uncertain because Gödel showed no system can prove its own consistency. Proof is (generally) rigourous enough that this is the main issue; once it has been proven (assuming your axioms are good), it’s considered true.
The statistician is uncertain because they work with samples rather than the population. There is also the issue of inferring causation even if your sample isn’t unrepresentative. With statistics you’re always building evidence, but you can never have concrete proof via statistical methods alone.
Also fun fact, given that there is more than one type of mathematics (e.g. platonist Vs intuitionistic), some giving different answers to the same question (excluded middle/trichotomy on the reals), and all of which are equiconsistent, we realise that mathematics really is just a branch of philosophy (i.e. what axioms are you willing to believe).
Everything is philosophy, ultimately
“statistics” can mean two things: it’s a field of mathematics, and it’s also the application of that field to the real world.
There are many theorems in statistics: the central limit theorem, the proof of the t-test, for example. This is maths.
But if what you’re doing is assuming a certain real distribution is normal, or testing for normality of real data, that’s not maths any more.
Just like calculus is real maths, but once you’re solving real integrals for real scenarios, you’re doing science.
Hot damn, that’s a take!
I really don’t want to take anything away from dentists, cause I got an emergency removal that quite possibly saved my life.
