There’s a whole world of strangeness that popular culture, science etc does not satisfyingly address. So they look elsewhere.
Sometimes you see things.
Fantasy is fun?
The last statement is not necessarily true- witchcraft has until very recently been understood to derive power from a concord with the devil.
That’s speaking from a certain perspective on that stuff.
“been understood to” is doing a lot of shady sleight-of-hand there.
I think the concept of “witches” is older than the concept of “church”.
Here, I googled it for you:
“Witches were sometimes said to have communed with demons or with the Devil, though such accusations were mainly made against perceived opponents of the Church.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchcraft (This specific section has a paper citation)
Theory - mass media creates the narrative that witches in the US are Devil worshippers, often with a pretty manly depiction of the Devil, thereby trying to enforce that they “derive their power from their relationship to a man”.
Yes, but that is hardly new. The church already did that in the middle ages and afterwards during the witch hunts.
Is this just girls?
Am boy, had a witchy phase
Same. We exist.
I had a few friends who introduced me to the topic. I’ve never cast a spell, but I learned a lot and really took to heart the end of the Witches’ Rede: “An ye harm none, do as ye will”. Which is empowering and generally fits in with the laws of the land.
Since that phrase has been a cornerstone of my personal philosophy, I’d call myself a witch.
Are you… Gerald?
far too flabby for that i’m afraid
Not witchcraft but, I went through a “try to train hard enough to get Dragon Ball Z powers” phase for similar reasons.
Does fungi phase count?
It’s certainly mostly girls
the aggressive gendering of the term “witch” by political activists has pretty much ruined it as a term for a type of magic practitioner. cultural appropriation is apparently fine when it’s politically convenient.
Clearly not just girls seeing as how you’re here, unless of course you end up transitioning at some point lol
ITT: “if only girls didn’t believe in horoscopes, my friend from college would have had a girlfriend”
Seriously. It’s so crazy to me to hate a behaviour based solely on its perceived impact on the chances of getting laid.
As if most of the people who got dumped over their zodiac weren’t just arseholes and the other person didn’t have heart to tell them.
I remember this happening when I was a teen, and there are still many women I know into it.
My mother was a self proclaimed witch since the 80’s/90’s, and told me as a child fairies were real, and constantly told me I “had psychic powers.” She read my cards and all that. It fucked me up wholly, and pushed me to science and fact. It’s not for me, and I don’t understand the fascination. But, if it makes other women happy, it’s really harmless.
it’s really harmless.
No its not. Belief in bullshit has negative consequences for the individual, their friends and family, and society as a whole.
Now, is it comparatively less harmful than some other things they could believe in? Absolutely but its still bad.
This is an ironically anti-intellectual way to engage with it. Magic isnt real, but knowledge on the natural world and medicine has been maintained through cultural practices like “witchcraft” in the past. Even beyond that, there’s knowledge gained for young women in a patriarchal society when they develop relationships with other women and identify with a group that is explicitly counter-cultural on the basis of women empowerment.
Knowledge isn’t just facts, it’s skills and introspection. Belief in something “bullshit” is often necessary to learn something that is not “bullshit.” We teach kids scientifically inaccurate information when they are young because they dont have a basis of knowledge that would enable more nuanced and accurate understandings. They “believe” in something like three states of matter and two genders/sexes because we judge that as a necessary belief to foster the skills that will enable them to learn the reality of these things later.
If they gained self - understanding and empowerment through this phase, then it isn’t bullshit. You should challenge this doomerism.
Belief in something “bullshit” is often necessary to learn something that is not “bullshit.”
I fundamentally disagree.
I actually don’t think we should teach bullshit and call it “foundational”. I don’t think that’s helpful at all. If you are teaching kids states of matter, they can count higher than three, and understand that the class wont cover every kind of matter.
If one’s “foundational” education ends up directly contradicting advanced education, it ends up being a way to cement simplified and conservative views of the world. A la “there are two genders” shit that you mention from conservatives and TERFs. If your education system is fostering that kind of mentality its a reflection of that education system’s failure.
Even beyond that, there’s knowledge gained for young women in a patriarchal society when they develop relationships with other women and identify with a group that is explicitly counter-cultural on the basis of women empowerment.
I’d rather women get together based on a shared love of science and engineering.
If they’d rather dress up and act as witches they should get into theater or become goths. Or just celebrate Halloween year round.
If they gained self - understanding and empowerment through this phase, then it isn’t bullshit.
But they didn’t. They obtained a new form of constructed collective delusion & superstition. They’re forming just another arbitrary aesthetics-based in-group to sneer at out-groups from.
You should challenge this doomerism.
Did you read my profile or something?
I’m going you ask you how you would explain fermionic condensates to a child who does not even know what the states of matter are let alone subatomic particles and quantum states; what quantum means even. (Do you know what it is?) I think it’s obvious to all of us why we simplify things for them even if it’s inaccurate for professionals.
Also, you entirely ignored any reality around the preservation of natural knowledge through these cultural practices, which I mentioned to encourage you to also consider how wildly racist this stance is. Countless cultures accurately record their histories and knowledge through practices that dont necessarily conform to the Euro-settler-colonial imagination of knowledge or evidence.
Education systems in liberal states don’t prime children to subscribe to distortions because they simplify things, they do that through obscuring the skills to develop that knowledge and through the systemic enforcement of industrious teaching pedagogies that objectifies the students as labour. Yes, that fails to educate students adequately to grow into intellectual adults, but that isn’t the purpose of those systems. To conflate necessary elements of growth and education with politically motivated education systems is once again ironically anti-intellectual.
Most of your comment is obviously unreasonable, and I think it’s safe to give you the grace to assume that you understand this as well. No, women who get into a witch phase aren’t guaranteed to be anti-intellectual or believe in magic as they get older and there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that it does besides your vibes. I called you a doomer because this is a doomer narrative where alternative ways of knowing are not only discarded, but actively constructed as pathological. I’ve used “ironically” more in these few comments than I have anywhere else in the past year; but this way of thinking is ironically superstitious.
Understand that I’m arguing in good faith, but I am both annoyed and intrigued in equal measure by you. I used to debate in a dedicated invite-only political forum and there was an anarcho primitivist that was frustratingly low activity (though perhaps for understandable reasons…), I place you in a similar category. Maybe you can bring about some understanding in me of your thinking, but I doubt it.
I’m going you ask you how you would explain fermionic condensates to a child who does not even know what the states of matter are let alone subatomic particles and quantum states; what quantum means even. (Do you know what it is?) I think it’s obvious to all of us why we simplify things for them even if it’s inaccurate for professionals.
Irritating reading comprehension. I specifically stated that you can teach kids there are many states of matter but that you are only going to be learning about some of them.
Also, you entirely ignored any reality around the preservation of natural knowledge through these cultural practices, which I mentioned to encourage you to also consider how wildly racist this stance is.
Cultural preservation can be done in many ways. That said, if cultural preservation encourages the belief in woo, its harmful, full stop. I apply this logic to all cultural preservation, including my own or my ancestors. This stance is not a nationalist, or tribal, or ethnocentric. What stance exactly is racist here and how?
Understand that I do want to preserve cultural information, but in an archivist’s way.
Countless cultures accurately record their histories and knowledge through practices that dont necessarily conform to the Euro-settler-colonial imagination of knowledge or evidence.
What is your point here?
Education systems in liberal states don’t prime children to subscribe to distortions because they simplify things, they do that through obscuring the skills to develop that knowledge and through the systemic enforcement of industrious teaching pedagogies that objectifies the students as labour.
They wouldn’t even teach culture or history at all if that were true. Our education also has a history of teaching nationalist myths and lies. And some of the teaching is just lacking due to poor prioritization of funds to pay teachers and provide resources from short term thinking. I work in a community center with an after school program and we are next door to a charter school. The charter school is egregiously terrible at teaching their kids absolutely anything and its boast about its “alternative” teaching styles. Alternatives are not always superior, even if the main methods are lacking or failing.
Do capitalists want education to be completely stripped down to “Teach them to be good little workers”? Absolutely, but they’ve not done that yet… though they’re certainly working on it. Though TBH, if the charter school next door is any indication they wont even be taught how to be a good laborer.
Yes, that fails to educate students adequately to grow into intellectual adults, but that isn’t the purpose of those systems. To conflate necessary elements of growth and education with politically motivated education systems is once again ironically anti-intellectual.
Teaching incorrect things to later correct is not necessary. How am I wrong here?
Most of your comment is obviously unreasonable, and I think it’s safe to give you the grace to assume that you understand this as well. No, women who get into a witch phase aren’t guaranteed to be anti-intellectual or believe in magic as they get older and there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that it does besides your vibes.
My comment is impatient perhaps. I’ve already argued in-person about this sort of thing multiple times through out my life and even if I remain civil usually the other side starts getting unpleasant and defensive and my patience for this shit is very low at this point. So you’ll have to excuse me if I seem rude now but its born of learned experiences.
If some even minority percentage of people who get into astrology start believing the stars actually dictate personalities for instance than I have no patience for that either. Witchcraft stuff for me is just another example of that, only perhaps more “advanced”.
That said, I’m not some authoritarian. If someone wants to waste their time on that gibberish that’s their prerogative. I also however will look down on them, avoid them, and generally not trust them. I don’t owe woo-believers the time of day. You don’t owe me any either.
I called you a doomer because this is a doomer narrative where alternative ways of knowing are not only discarded, but actively constructed as pathological. I’ve used “ironically” more in these few comments than I have anywhere else in the past year; but this way of thinking is ironically superstitious.
“Alternative ways of knowing” Are you anti-empiricist?
Okay, that’s fine you’ve been in “debates” in internet forums, I’m actually an academic who writes about cultural and social norms, and knowledge production professionally.
I’m not going to engage with anything here because its obvious you aren’t a serious person but very much want to be recognised as one without the work. Nothing here is honest and you’ve chosen to argue that I’m just stupid; both good signs that you are very dedicated to your anti-intellectualism.
This has not been a “debate,” this was me explaining a useful skill to you. Some honest advice: stop feeling satisfied with yourself just because you feel smart on the internet. You’re an adult and nobody is going to force you to grow into something better.
You’re a coward.
Thank. You.
See, if you said it was grade A+ nonsense, then I’d be hurt.
I was tryin to have good grace here
Just about every time someone said something dumb about me or other people, it had real impacts on their lives. Some asshole said I could read minds which drove away friends who believed that’s possible. They also said I was a whore despite never even touching anyone until I was an adult; between me and others this happened to, it seriously harmed our ability to form relationships for years.
Ignorance and lies are not harmless.
I know some people do it as a hobby/curiosity/passion/personality thing. They don’t actually believe it, but it’s fun and looks cool. That’s harmless. The people who believe it’s real though? That’s not as harmless. It makes you less engaged with reality and fact, and maybe you won’t participate in actual work to fix things because you think your magic is just as good, or better.
Yeah there’s plenty of ways to take part in stuff like this without actually believing in magic, or fairies - or gods. It seems like our berry picking ape brains desire these types of narratives and the communities we can gain through them, so I’d even argue it is more stupid to try to fight against them than just accept they’re part of us and play along when needed.
Practicing magic or going to a church can be about doing fun things that tickle your brain, about tradition, about community - it doesn’t need to mean you don’t believe in science or have to abandon realistic worldview. Pitting science against belief instead of seeing the tendency to create weird little narratives about the world as a thing we do hasn’t solved things - the cults and beliefs are still there and ever so strong - just driven a lot of people deep deeeep into crazy
Meanwhile wizards: “BEHOLD MY STAFF OF POWER”, “I’m pondering the SPHERES”, “KNEEL BEFORE MY MIGHTY ROD”.
Jokes aside, that is a culture thing - if my rather tattered memory serves, historically, a lot of magic was pact magic (asking someone else for power in exchange). Necromancy was a little different (before its conflation with “nigromancy” by the church in medieval times) and in its earlier incarnation generally involved a “descent” into the underworld via a gate (of which there were many) and so was almost “adventure magic”. These ancient holy sites were venerated rather than shunned and, again memory is patchy here, generally held an oracle (i.e. a witch).
So, fun fact of the day, if you go caving in the right place you’re technically a necromancer.
What’s the go with necromancy/nigromancy? This is all new to me and sounds fascinating!
So, in essence, necromancy was (traditionally) a divinatory art (in short asking questions of the dead who were seen to stand outside time [the notions of time and mortality being intertwined]). Greek and Roman Necromancy by Ogden is a good text on the history here.
Nigromancy, translating to “black divination” (black as in dark/evil magic) was more to do with demonic pacts and spells focused around power (e.g. summoning a feast, calling up a castle, cursing to madness or death, winning the love of a woman). The text forbidden rites gives a good exploration of this from a historical perspective.
Ahh nice right, this is great, and a good TIL, thank you!!
This witch magics
I will never willingly go caving, not after the nutty putty cave incident.
Caving is fine as long as you stick to places you can walk to and stand in. As soon as your feet leave the ground or your elbows touch it, that’s your sign you’ve gone too far.
I just don’t see a benefit in doing it in the first place. People who actually have some business to attend to in the bowels of the earth can go into caves - if you’re a miner or geologist or something, feel free to walk right in. I’ll stay right here outside and you can tell me all about it when you get back out.
There are a few large, stable, and very pretty caves that are worth visiting just to experience them. For instance, Carlsbad Caverns in New Mexico is a popular tourist spot where you can either hike down to the best part of it or take an elevator. No chance of getting stuck anywhere on the guided path.
because being in a coven with amazing women is preferable than being near high school boys.
my experience with irl wiccan groups has led me to the opposite conclusion, it was a deeply uncomfortable experience from start to finish each and every time. my personhood was not respected, my relationship to my s.o. was not respected, half the talk was “christians bad we’re better than christians because of our religion” and the leaders looked at me with the same hungry expression as a horny teenager looks at a porno mag. i’d rather hang out with the high schoolers, at least they don’t seem like they’re trying to pull me into a weird sex cult.
Even into adulthood, they love bullshit like horoscopes and blood types (the latter more prominent in Japan).
Just let people enjoy things, jeez
I mean, I didn’t say they couldn’t. It’s just bullshit.
That’s such a Capricorn thing to say
Um, I don’t believe in astrology; I’m a Sagittarius.
So strange how people will throw snark at others for enjoying harmless fun.
Harmless fun until they talk shit about one of their friends’ boyfriend because his sign doesn’t match and they think he’ll cheat on her… To fish one example out of the sea…
That goes deeper than simple horoscopes. If it wasn’t horoscopes, it’d be religion. If not religion, race. If not race, diet. If not diet, hobbies. It’s like talking shit about someone because they don’t use your favorite distro. Is Linux the problem? Or is it someone’s capacity to pass condescending judgements over silly things? Some people are insufferable. That’s a people issue.
Back in our early 20s, my friend decided not to date a guy because of his horoscope and some tarot readings she got. You could throw away the love of your life that way.
This kind of thinking is silly. First, that’s her problem. Second, whoa, jeez, are the stakes really that high? “I’d be married happily ever after if only she hadn’t gotten those darn tarot cards read.” Move on, meet someone else.
Your comment makes zero sense. I never said it was my problem and the stakes are the same any time you have a potential relationship. You inferred quite a bit of nonsense into my comment and that’s all on you.
What were you trying to say with your comment?
Tbf aren’t they used a lot for taking money from vulnerable people or just overall spread gossip about those you dislike?
Believing stupid shit like astrology actually affects our personalities and actions is not harmless at all.
You’d be surprised which things affect our personalities and actions. I’d bet my left hat that you have some silly influences over you that you think are mundane and normal. And I bet those things make you more fun to be around too. Or less fun, depending on your company.
The majority of it is indeed harmless fun, but I personally know someone who believes they don’t mesh well with specific signs. So much so that once they learn someone has that sign their opinion sours.
That sounds like their problem
Yes, it is a problem with their magical thinking surrounding superstitious, preconceived notions about others. Just like how phrenology is not only bunk, but actively harmful in stereotyping people, inaccurately, for things they cannot control, zodiacal discrimination is similarly potentially harmful bunk.
Phrenology was used for scientific racism. “Zodiacal discrimination” is used to … not go on dates with people? Be a drag in social circles? What if someone doesn’t like my socks and refuses to date me? Is this potentially harmful bunk? What about haircuts?
Given how many idiots there are who make hiring decisions? Yeah, I’ll bet that it has harmed a not insignificant number of people. As long as people have noted the movements of the heavens, people have made life and death decisions on the perceived significance of the positions of the stars, sun and moon. Bunk is bunk, and all it takes is one incredibly stupid demagogue to believe a horoscope for the world to change in a horrible way. If there is no other lesson of the last 10 years in american politics, then at least this: never underestimate either the depths of stupidity to which a human can descend, and never underestimate the damage that the truly stupid can cause.
But blood types are real.
not the part where they define your personality and compatibility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_type_personality_theory
Obviously. But in Japan, people think certain blood types have specific personality traits and it gets really annoying when people believe it as if it were solid science.
Whoa, what?
…nope. Considered hormonal influence on blood cells for a moment but unlikely and even then not over statistic noise.
It’s apparently because we have a pretty even split between A, B, AB, and I types unlike many other countries where the population tends to lean heavily on one type, which makes it easier to categorize people and traits.
Tbh, this “reason” is something I saw ages ago on TV, so I’m not even sure if it’s true. Please take it with a gigantic grain of salt!
Some isolated island effect?
so are stars and planets. call me when people base their kids’ diets on made up shit about them.
i actually grew up with this bullshit and i feel lucky i don’t have more health issues.
I’ll say it: adult witches are hot
Was this ever doubted?? Ofc they are
The undead are safer to be around than a man.
But what about undead vs a bear?
what about undead human vs undead bear?
Isn’t it assumed that witches get their power from the devil?
I think that’s a generally Christian-centric view (which describes anything non-Jesus as the devil). As far as Pagan witches are concerned they could get their power from any number of gods/goddesses, or even from nature herself.
"I don’t hold with paddlin’ with the occult,” said Granny firmly. “Once you start paddlin’ with the occult you start believing in spirits, and when you start believing in spirits you start believing in gods. And then you’re in trouble.”
“But all them things exist,” said Nanny Ogg.
“That’s no call to go around believing in them. It only encourages ‘em."
Terry Pratchett knew how it works lol
This is new info to me, so not sure who else, but Paganism isn’t a single system. It’s anything the Christians were trying to erase in Europe. The wildly varying descriptions occur because it was just the negative terms applied to any other group. Going to church is a ritual. Consuming eucharist is a ritual. Priests are channels to their god. Hyms are chants. Prayers are incantations. All just negative terms applied to the out groups.
So warlocks and clerics are just made up distinctions of the same thing? /j
Yeah, I didn’t want to disempower women, or anything like that. I know that this was merely the christiannarrative of witches.
Kind of interesting, though that the male-centric christian church had to invent a male figure which gives the witch her power.
When Ezekiel raises the dead, it’s a blessing from god. But when I do it…
I see nothing wrong with this. Please, continue and praise Satan.
Well a witch had sex with the devil. Or sth like that
If men stopped seeing women as prizes or things to conquer, they’d be able to appreciate just how impressive that is. And then to just call it a fling or a casual hookup. The devil is probably ancient and chill enough to know that sex can just be sex and power can just be power.
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this is going to get downvoted into the dust and my inbox is gonna blow up over it but damn one of the very first things i learned as a practitioner was to stay the fuck clear of wiccans, every single group that i checked out was basically an utterly shameless mirror image of evangelical christianity, with all the same issues. its been some years and ive been out of touched but based on my experience i would not be surprised at all to hear that every last one of them voted for trump. between those braindead religious fuckwits and the uninvited appropriation of the term by vaguely feminist slacktivists on the internet, my stock reaction as a decades-long magical practitioner when someone says they’re a “witch” is to roll my eyes and keep moving.
Why do you separate these people? If you see something inherently wrong with churches why do you not feel the same sense of destruction towards witches? Consider your bias and how it makes you as delusional as anyone who blindly puts faith in higher powers.
Probably because I’ve never heard of a coven of witches writing to their local representative to ban abortion and enact sodomy laws.
What’s inherently wrong with witches?
Consider your own bias. Recognize the difference between a victim and an evangelist.
because dipshit reactionaries think of practicing witchcraft as being a political stance aligned with the culture war and dogmatically refuse to see value in religions they don’t practice. kind of like the christians they have such a hate boner for.
There’s also something to be said about gaining power from the moon because it aligns with our bodies’ natural rhythms as well.
