Flight instructor: “Do your best, lol.”
What a selfish shitty thing to do to someone
It’s similar to people who end themselves by stepping in front of a truck or a train. It can be extremely traumatic to the driver.
I disagree. Leaving someone with trauma, versus leaving someone in a life or death situation is quite different I’d say.
The similarity is involving people in the act and leaving them to deal with extreme trauma.
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This is the hill we’re choosing? Really?
It’s a shitty thing to do to someone else, full stop.
I mean he’s right about the suicide thing. Its the difference between traumatizing someone and taking them with you. Both are terrible, sure, no one is denying that. But one of these involves killing (or at least attempting to) somebody. So yes, murder is worse than giving someone PTSD.
But WHY are you making it into a trolley problem when it’s not?
Yes both are shitty things. But still, I would much rather be:
Traumatized for life vs. Traumatized for life + potentially die
The train conductor is much more likely to walk another day to see their family again. Even if they are really fucking traumatized. Its doing a suicide traumatizing someone vs traumatizing someone and potentially taking them with me to death
According to other people in this thread, she had at least enough flight experience that she should be able to land solo. So, the risk to her was from the trauma he inflicted, if it impeded her ability to land safely. Explaining it here actually makes it seem even more similar to the truck driver. It’s entirely possible that if you hit a person with a truck, you’d freeze up or your mind would blank or you’d otherwise be unable to control yourself well and cause further accidents before you could stop safely.
According to other people in this thread, she had…
Fun way to admit you don’t read articles.
Or, hear me out… I read the article and that’s how I knew that information wasn’t in the article.
I’m really conflicted about you. Part of me really likes people who encourage others to read the articles, but reading the articles isn’t the only important thing. Understanding is also important.
It can be extremely traumatic to the guy stepping in front of the vehicle as well!
Yeah, I’m driving home from a late work shift, 3am.
My MF neighbor’s adult kid had layed down in the road right past a blind curve hoping someone would run over him and kill him. Good thing my driveway was less than a couple hundred feet away and I was going slow enough to swerve around him.
F’d em up for a bit and I didn’t even kill him
That’s asking for an Ethan Frome type injury.
Expecting anything more from a dead person is kinda pointless though. It’s like crying about spilled milk. Nothing you or anyone can do about it—dead people are not able to be guilty of anything. The only guilt a dead person can have is the one assigned by yourself. Not you specifically, but anyone who wants dead people to be guilty of something. Dead people are not able to change behavior or learn from their choices or bring justice to any further victims. Expecting that is a futile effort.
I don’t understand, what do you think Montagge is suggesting?
Exactly. Imagine continuing to drive something against the wishes of others. The plan was to crash.
During the flight, Bertazzo allegedly told Rosario, “You know what to do” before removing his headset, arranging his belongings, taking off his seatbelt and exiting the aircraft.
Importantly, the article also says she was trained, but still needed some hours with an instructor or pilot before being allowed to fly solo. He must have decided his other student that day wasn’t ready but felt she’d be safe without him. Better than some suicidal pilots who have crashed the whole plane.
Landings are pretty much your first focus after basic air work, and you can solo in 15-20 hours typically. A full license is around 80 hours (at least here in Canada), and she had a ppl already.
When i soloed my instructor was kind enough to get out of the plane while we were on the ground. What a horrible experience for this student.
PPL minimum in Canada is 45 flight hours and it’s common for students to solo in 10. “Full license” also doesn’t really mean anything. There’s a recreational pilot permit, private pilot license, and commercial pilot license, with various ratings/endorsements among those.
An Argentinian PPL is likely different, given the article’s mention of the pilot needing to still build time with an instructor. Though, it could’ve been a rental checkout of some sort.
During the flight, Bertazzo allegedly told Rosario, “You know what to do” before removing his headset, arranging his belongings, taking off his seatbelt and exiting the aircraft.
Instructor: (Encouragingly) “If you can handle this, Rosario, it’ll all get easier from here on out. The most stressful moments are when you’re just learning.”
Student: “Thanks, but I’m sure that…”
Instructor: dives out plane door
Student: …
Student:
She had a private licence, so she was more than capable of flying solo.
Did you actually read the article?
Rosario already had a private pilot license but was still building up her flying hours, meaning she was required to fly with an instructor or safety pilot.
She was required to specifically not fly solo due to her inexperience. Source: the article
Do you realise how little journalists know about aviation? I wouldn’t trust them to know which end of the plane goes forward.
Don’t say “did you read the article?” when someone states something that’s in the article if you’re going to turn around and say “well, the article is wrong”. It makes it sound like you didn’t read the article.
Better than some suicidal pilots
Is this a common occurrence?
It isn’t what I would call “common”, but it happens: Suicide by aircraft
Most of those are the pilot crashing alone, but there have been some high-profile crashes of commercial flights that have either been confirmed or are strongly suspected to have been intentional, like EgyptAir 990, Germanwings 9525, and SilkAir 185. The mysteriously missing MH370 was also likely an intentional act.
I wouldn’t call it common but there’s been enough for a Wikipedia page:
If the student had a PPL, it’s likely she was training with him (a commercial pilot) for her IL instrument license, the next step up from PPL. Means she was qualified to land in clear weather.
He wasn’t putting her in physical peril. But it’s still a terrible mental burden to put on someone else.
You never know how someone will react to something traumatizing like that. She could have had a panic attack and passed out.
Sure, but she’s a trained pilot. You’re literally drilled on a large number of emergency situations and procedures, with step by step checklists. The lead pilot dying isn’t even the scary kind of emergency, in that situation the plane is still working fine. A sudden loss of airspeed, engine out, or a control surface unresponsive, those are all much scarier, and the pilot is expected to stay calm in all of those situations.
You’d hope. Still, I wouldn’t categorize any of those situations as not putting the pilot in physical peril.
Oh yeah, 100% those are straight up dangerous situations.
You’re just not allowed to freak out during those dangerous situations. It’s like how “there’s no crying in baseball”, well “there’s no freaking out in aviation”.
“Good luck, we’re all counting on you.”
One of the reasons for the crash of Tarom Flight 371 was one of the pilots dying
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“According to reports, 22-year-old student pilot named Rosario already had a private pilot license but was still building up her flying hours, meaning she was required to fly with an instructor or safety pilot.”
Probably instrument rating
In the future, its usually a good idea to read the article before chiming in.
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Before you get any kind of full license or certificate you usually need to do a certain number of solo hours as a student where you literally fly alone as the pilot in command, before you have your license.
Bertazzo had completed another lesson earlier that day without incident
Without… jumping to his death…? Sometimes this standard journalistic phrasing just kills me. I shouldn’t be laughing
“He’s taught many lessons, and this is the first time this type of incident ever happened. Everyone was shocked, he’d never done that before.”
What? He’d never died during a previous lesson?
I’m so glad I’m not alone in finding this so funny.
During the flight, Bertazzo allegedly told Rosario, “You know what to do” before removing his headset, arranging his belongings, taking off his seatbelt and exiting the aircraft.
… ‘exiting the aircraft’.
Yeah that’s… accurate, but seems like perhaps an overly neutral verb to use.
Yep, just stepping out for a bit, to get some air.
Fuck me, this is an actual dark comedy skit, I can swear I’ve seen some skits from back in the day where more or less this is the plot.
I guess all I can say is that I wish I could give Rosario a hug, what an awful thing to be forced into.
Probably didn’t even have the courtesy to close the door behind him
Well I suppose… at least that’s not as bad as slamming it angrily.
“Without incident” means literally nothing remarkable happened. For example, if he had been behaving erratically or threatened suicide during the earlier flight, those would be incidents that should’ve tipped someone off that they should intervene and not let this guy back up.
If there had been an incident, further investigation would be warranted to determine if this was preventable, and if so, who could have prevented it. The journalist is specifically highlighting that no one but the pilot appears to be at fault right now.
There’s also a huge issue in the aviation industry at least in the US where pilots do not disclose mental health concerns because it results in an immediate grounding - which means loss of pay.
Instructors are often also new pilots who use teaching to build up flight hours until they can land a carrier job, and also have a boatload of debt from their training. So, they’re effectively stuck with trying to just deal with it, or face bankruptcy.
Xyla Foxlin is a youtuber and amateur pilot who had faced a mental health issue and was grounded for quite some time, she has a few videos talking about it.
because it results in an immediate grounding - which means loss of pay.
I can’t think of a more macabre example of why making people’s livelihood depend on their health is a bad idea. That also applies to other jobs, where a creeping loss in performance might not immediately kill, but far more so in professions where lives are placed in the care of someone who can’t afford to be honest about their reliability.
I will never understand why people do things like this. You want to end your life? Cool. Why do you feel this need to traumatize and/or murder others in the process?
Also really, really wish we as a species took mental health more seriously.
Maybe the idea was that he could end his life, without risking crashing the plane? Why he chose this method specifically will, unfortunately, never be answered.
Yup, no way to know. Maybe he had a psychotic break in that moment and didn’t ever expect to do it. I just have a concentrated hatred for people who do these things and take innocent people with them.
I have past attempts and I agree, it’s the most selfish thing you can do. Get help people, it can get better.
I imagine it’s more like an intrusive thought when he was vulnerable. He was likely having a bad time, feeling desperate and suicidal with no help. Then the thought came that he could just open the door, so he did. No planning, no consideration, no real thought once triggered. Other people just weren’t relevant
Arguably if you have the wherewithal to consider other people, there’s at least a sliver of something to live for
If someone’s so traumatised as to end their life this way, they’re probably not very concerned about the consequences. Not excusing this, it’s still terrible, just trying to explain it for myself.
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And furthermore, this makes the other person a suspect in your death. Just a super shitty way to do it all around.
A lot of people include “I don’t give a shit about anyone else” in their “I don’t give a shit [about myself]” suicidal thoughts.
- Ex-cop, dealt with lots of suicide-by-cop attempts and investigated a lot of suicides
When you get into that head space, you don’t care about anything at all. The worst postpartum depression I had even made me stop caring about my kids. Then you dissociate and there’s very little of what makes you, you, left. When I think back on it it’s like I was trapped in my mind and someone else took over.
This sounds truly horrible.
You appear to be better, I hope that’s the case and that it’s there to stay.
Maybe that was the plan, for some reason… Hatred against their family or something?
If you think that’s even a glimmer of a concern in the mind of a suicidal person, I urge you to think further about it. If anything, this man knew he wasn’t condemning the student as well.
I understand.
‘Fuck me, you’re a bad pilot. I’m going to take my chances out there’.
I feel bad for laughing so hard at this. Bravo.
since the article is already categories as “entertainment”, the comment feels kinda appropriate
Just a quibble.
They said the instructor died ‘mid-flight’
Technically, he died at the end of HIS flight.
Hardly a flight, more like a fall really… :-P
Its not the fall that kills you, its the abrupt high velocity meeting with ground.
Technically accurate!
With style!
Maybe he did mid air from a heart attack
Doubt it. A smaller plane will be around 15,000ft which would mean the fall would be about 1 and a half minutes to impact. I also doubt they were at that altitude so it would be less than that. Unless it was fast and massive I dont think you can die that quick from a heart attack. Passing out would be the best case scenerio, but even that is probably low chance as well.
FYI- much lower. At 15,000’ you need oxygen (or pressurized cabin), which most small planes do not have. I don’t think you’d need a supercharger yet, but many engines would be struggling
I was a passenger on a small plane where they only had oxygen for the pilots. I believe it was at 15,000 ‘. It was surreal: it didn’t take long for the blackness to start closing in from the sides until I could only see a small tunnel in front of me. I don’t know if I should have been worried for my life but I clearly would not have been capable of flying.
A standard air breathing small Plane without supercharger or other altitude adaptation, can take a long time and a lot of fuel to get up to 15,000’ as the engine gets weaker with thinner air. It’s generally not worth trying to go this high unless you’re in a longer trip (the article doesn’t say anything about the plane though so if it had a supercharger and oxygen, then disregard this. Nothing I say applies to anything with a turbine)
One of the most common training aircraft is a Cessna 152. Google tells me it has a ceiling of 14,700’. It can’t even reach 15,000’ (depending on air pressure)
> Is a licensed fly instructor
> Can not flyThose who can, do…
(Side note: I’m a language teacher for a language I began learning as an adult in a country where it is the national language, so, while I don’t support the quote in general or apply it to any other teachers, it’s definitely something that my brain sometimes snipes at me during moments of impostor syndrome)
I know that quote as well and I think that this quote is very bad. It shows an aversion to learning in general.
No wonder that the US population is so poorly educated.
That’s not the spirit of the quote, though it’s not entirely your fault. It’s better reflected in the original, attributed to Aristotle: “Those who can, do; those who understand, teach.”
There are a whole host of reasons someone may not be able to “do”. Maybe they used to effectively “do”, but got hurt, or just got too old. It could be the simple recognition that teaching is the “do”, because of your deep understanding and ability to communicate and inspire.
It recognizes a conscious choice not to stubbornly attempt or continue to “do”, but to instead take a back seat and direct your energy into others who will “do” more effectively than you ever could. It’s about wisdom, self-awareness, and taking the long view. You are readying the next generation of do-ers, passing the torch, perhaps multiplying your efforts and extending your life’s impact further into the future.
So it is basically a misquote?
Looks like it first appeared in a 1903 play. Without much more context I’d guess it started as a playful, ironic reinterpretation which over a long period of time turned into a disparagement.
I think it comes from jobs where a physical limitation prevents people from “doing,” like retired athletes or really experienced surgeons who develop a tremor. Or even just people who no longer have the physical strength to do manual labor, but have a repertoire of techniques that will help others do it more effectively.
I agree that the quote doesn’t apply to teachers in general.
The US isn’t especially poorly educated on average.
The US is so unequally educated for many reasons, but the biggest one is the cost, which is mostly due to (as always) Reagan. He defunded K-12 education and public universities. When universities raised their prices in response, the government, which had been offering some need based student loans regardless of major since the sixties, greatly expanded the program, partially privatizing it. In order to make loans to very young people without immediate employment prospects a less risky investment, the loans were made unable to be discharged in bankruptcy. The increase in available loans allowed universities to further increase costs without risking pricing their applicant pools out. That became a vicious cycle and the tuitions and loans became so bloated that many graduates start with six figures in debt. It’s not a good deal for a lot of students, and it’s a worse deal, the less stable the finances of your family, unfortunately.
Categorized as “entertainment”.
well, are you not entertained?
entertain
First thing I noticed as well. We are fucked as a species. This is awful.
Is the thumbnail photo of the instructor who killed himself?
Yes, it is.
That seems so morbid when the article is more focused on the student than the pilot.
As it should be. Fuck that guy for traumatizing that poor unsuspecting person.
Especially when he looks so pained in the picture.
Incredibly cruel. What a monster.
Mens mental health is already a disaster, but in the airline industry it’s made worse by the fact that you can lose your piloting license just by seeking help. This is a tragic story. I’ve joked about this story elsewhere, but I’ve learned more about it since then.
Very similar in law enforcement as well.
I personally worked alongside three people who committed suicide for years in our tiny district of maybe 50 patrol deputies over the span of about three years. Kirk Keithley was my zone partner for a long time, then it was Terry Strawn, and then finally Daniel Leyden.
Of course, they also murdered their S/Os and other family members as well, so I’m not exactly pouring one out for them, but it’s an undeniable trend more broadly - that spaces that theoretically require the utmost in mental health often paradoxically result in mental health crises because of the stigma and practicality of undermining your paycheck; when the problem is still solvable, it’s “not big enough of a deal to risk my job over it.”
It’s a messy picture with cops, too because that job so strongly attracts cluster B personality types. You’re not just working a job that is institutionally trying to drive you crazy (Killology seminars and all), but the job itself is highly attractive to the most unstable people in society.
True. It’s a mess.
Pedantically that doesn’t take away from your point but asserting just for clarity because I see people bring it up a lot:
The infamous Killology lecture isn’t taught to the vast majority of law enforcement in the US as I understand it. We certainly didn’t receive it (or similar) at my academy.
I’ve heard it isn’t quite as bad as cherry-picked-and-taken-out-of-context-to-malign, but I’ve personally never watched it, much like I haven’t read Mein Kampf; “That seems like a soup sandwich of nasty, so I’m not going to waste my time.”
It should be the other way around. LEO should be required to get regulator mental health help. It’s a stressful job, potentially dangerous, they’re armed and have people’s lives in their hands. We need to make damn sure they are capable of handling that with a sound mind.
As previously mentioned, they simply bottle it up. It’s not hard to “I’ve never had any suicidal ideations” your way out of any mandatory screening as currently implemented. Some are better at rooting out deception like that, but apparently that’s not in the budget. I received an MMPI-style questionnaire and subsequent interview, but so did all three of those peers I mentioned who passed just the same as I did. Hell, one of my academy classmates told the psychologist he thought he was Batman. When pressed for why, he relented and said it was an outburst because he was distraught due to his goldfish dying. He obviously made it through with a Pass and I think is still on the force many years later? His social media is intentionally obscure so it’s hard to say.
Truth be told, reforming law enforcement in this and other ways is simply not politically motivating for most Americans; they’re generally either focused on other single issues, “The police are perfect and criticizing them is immoral,” or “The police are all bastards and need to be abolished.”
I’m not dumb enough to tell everyone I meet I was a cop so all of my discussions about the matter are generally relegated to the internet, but of the people I bump elbows with on the topic on Reddit, 90% of the time it turns into name-calling and other bad faith tactics. The other evidence I use is… -gestures broadly at the state of US politics-. Remember when people were marching in the streets to fix the police? Remember how it generally didn’t?
Despite the shocking turn of events, Rosario managed to… safely bring the Cessna back to the airfield without damaging the aircraft.
What a bizarre thing to say. Well, phew, I guess. Lucky the aircraft wasn’t damaged by the single female pilot who already had her licence and was just building up hours. Me and all other males in the world would have expected her woman-brain to take over and cause her to panic-land while doing a backflip and simultaneously rolling her ankle or some shit apparently.
I’m seriously struggling to understand why “without damaging the aircraft” was added to the sentence.
Yes this headline is clearly intended to reinforce the patriarchy rather than to get clicks and sound more suspenseful. And everyone was thinking about the pilot’s gender before you brought it up.
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student pilot successfully landed a plane by herself
Illustration picture is a man.
This is infuriating.
That’s a picture of the instructor not the student
Who cares about the instructor?
Probably his family that’s still processing and mourning his odd suicide.
Attempted homocide, you mean?
Suicide harms more than the individual committing it, yes.
I thought it was some rando pilot they found.
“We need a picture of a pilot for this tragic story. Not smiling, stupid.”
She’s 22, quite possible she didn’t want her photo being put online
Are you not entertained??
I don’t think Bertazzo died “mid-flight”
Mid-landing, really
Came here to post this.
