I was literally saying this to a friend. The difference between a country with “rampant corruption” and a “modern western democracy” is the entry price for the bribes.
Shit entitled westerners say for $200
Is that an offer of a bribe?
what does that even mean
Dumb fucks should try actually living in a state run on baksheesh before opening their spoiled mouths is what it means.
What’s a backsheesh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baksheesh
Think “offer this policeman a humble gift and he’ll overlook your crime” (which may or not may not be a real crime) when the police salaries are paid almost entirely in humble gifts.
Someone I know was recently arrested in an African country where he lives. Someone had uncovered a major kickback scheme being run by a relative of a cabinet-level politician, and this person was caught in the crossfire. He wasn’t involved in any real way, but he does some graphic design work and had made pamphlets or posters or something for a client that ended up being used as part of this crime. So, he and a lot of other people who were only peripherally involved like this were arrested. The politician didn’t want this scandal in the news, so he made sure that the crime went away. But, that still left the guy I knew locked up in jail. Even though there was now no crime, the cops weren’t going to release him from jail until they received a bribe. A family member of his wired money to Africa and then another family member hand carried that bribe to the police station so they would let him go.
Developing countries have situations where regular people get to, or have to bribe cops, officials, etc. just to get by day to day. But, it doesn’t mean that that’s where the corruption stops. They have all the same bribery of the president, prime minister, chief justice, etc. that you get in say the USA. But, there’s also corruption all the way down. It’s exhausting, and the rich people / corporations still always win.
This also varies widely from country to country. You’re not going to see the same level and type of corruption in a place like Liberia compared to for example Thailand, Colombia or Morocco.
Some countries have corruption so deep, it’s almost impossible to live without engaging somehow, and the State acts almost like a paramilitary group that beyond taxes, charges for protection from themselves, while other countries have flawed systems that still guarantee a certain degree of protections and due process to as many people as possible. And yet other countries are only poor but still have functional systems and institutions.
The term “developing country” is, in my opinion, quite misguided because it lumps together countries like Venezuela, Haiti, Belarus, Somalia or Eritrea, which are totally royally fucked, with countries like Argentina, Botswana, Thailand or Colombia, which have big problems but are in no way close to the other group.
Another way that low-level corruption hurts is that it’s so inefficient. When you have to know the right person and give the right bribe just to import/export your goods on time, the economy of your entire country slows down.
Yep. Super inefficient and unpredictable. You might temporarily know the right person to bribe, but that might change, or the price might go up. And your suppliers have to negotiate the bribes too. And your customers have their own issues.
It’s why the US is going to take a pounding from all the tariff BS. Not only are the tariffs high, nobody can guess from one month to the next what’s going to happen, so many have to cancel orders and wait it out.
You don’t even need to bribe them, just trade favors is enough. They are very, very cheap.
I don’t have a link, but I remember an exposé a few years ago where some politician sold out their constituents for like 10k-100k in campaign contributions.
The response was along the lines of, ‘why don’t we just make a Kickstarter to buy them back’
Obviously this results in a bidding war we probably can’t win… And it’s, in theory, what PAC is supposed to be; but it might be useful in both defining a given politicians price, and in driving up the cost of corruption.
That feels very ‘free market’ to me.
edit: fixed autocorrect typo.
You can make that kind of money elsewhere. What senseless idiots.
In highschool I once ran for the position of student council treasurer more as a lark than anything else. I ran a campaign of complete honesty and assured my fellow students that I would lie and steal and basically wallow in corruption, however, there would always be money when they needed it and I would keep my skimming within reasonable limits.
I lost that election.
The guy that won highschool president for my grade ran on “This position is a joke and you should vote for me as a protest candidate.”
His campaign consisted of bribing people to vote for him with donuts and making outlandish, joking claims like “eliminating homework and finals week.” He also told everyone he “100% wasn’t going to do anything expected or required of the position.”
When your electorate is rebellious highschoolers, thats just running an effective campaign
I think that plus racism is a proven winner for current potus.
You didn’t lie about lying, that’s where you failed. You should’ve lied harder and actually held it for yourself, then you’d have been believable, smh.
I mean, the rich can still outbid you
But we have a chance to participate is what makes it more equal
Well, the Balkans are also a more direct democracy: these situations can happen anywhere, anytime, with no rich people in sight.
No no no. We can bribe too, we just suck at it, we call it tips, and we only bribe after the fact and it has little to no bearing on our service rendered.
This is something I have always said about Louisiana in the 1990’s. DA asked for $100. I went to the ATM, paid the man, and the charges disappeared. Then moved to Texas and everything was by the book until my rich CEO offered to “call his buddy” the DA. After that, I didn’t have to worry about speeding tickets again.
PS: Yes, I had a lead foot. Still do, but not as severe.
Bribing US politicians is much cheaper than you think. They will sell out their country for just a few thousand
But because the separation of power and diffusion of power makes it harder for a pleb like me to do the bribery, while a rich person can just buy all 3 branches of government.
OMG as a PRC-born American Citizen, this is so relatable. Literally you can have a second child in China during One Child Policy, and as long as you somehow (like idk ask friend to borrow money maybe, or just work overtime a lot) managed to find the money to pay “fines” (which I’d consider effectively a “bribe”), your child can get legal status. Money solves problems, literally.
Oh can we bribe the mods?
The rich certainly can’t
I can have your favorite flavor of estherized estradiol at your home in a week
Yes, but they don’t like taking bribes directly so you’ll have to use their proxy.
I am their proxy.
So direct all bribes to me.
I stuck as many coins as I could find on my laptop keyboard and closed the lid to fax everything to you. Now I’m typing from my phone because my laptop screen suddenly stopped working right when I was being ready to send you my bribe. How am I supposed to send you the bribe now? I can’t get anything to fit in the USB C slot, except for this stupid charger…
Can’t find anything in the rules that forbids it…
If you set the bribe amount at a peppercorn (i.e. a trivial though non-zero amount), close loopholes allowing multiple bribes and strictly enforce it, you may be onto something.
Nice fucking try, Big Peppercorn
Every fuckin thread with one of these shameless Peppercorn reps
I mean, if we had to choose a trivial non-zero amount, I’m sure Big Mustard Seed would be right there with them.
Incredibly bad take incoming:
I don’t have a problem with widespread corruption inherently, but it has to be well understood and broadly applicable (which it generally isn’t).
For the average citizen, it doesn’t make much of a difference if you have to pay a €10 processing fee at town hall to get a copy of an official document or if you give the teller €10 under the table to make sure your document gets processed. In fact, there’s an argument to be made that the bribe fosters the local economy more than the processing fee. The problem occurs when a person who does not expect corruption doesn’t pay the €10 that no one tells them is necessary and doesn’t get their document.
Of course the processing fee, being publicly disclosed, is subject to pushback from the populace as a whole, whereas the bribe can be set based on how badly the individual needs something from the government/how positively the official feels about the individual and can therefore be incredibly unfairly applied, which is obviously worse.
Incredibly bad take incoming:
I mean I can’t argue with you there
I’d love it if you argued with the other bits though, because I know there is a problem with evenly applied corruption, I just don’t see it.
You think it’s evenly applied, doesn’t mean it is. You take the power from the people and give it to a random official. Better hope they aren’t racist, sexist, homophobic, etc.
There’s no checks, and knowing people it will not be an evenly applied corruption.
Plus that $10 fee goes to the city. If your city functions well that benefits everyone rather than a single government official. I’d rather have maintained roads and some libraries than a few wealthy government officials.
Also if the government doesn’t get their cut or has a shortfall in revenue they just raise taxes/fees. Then you have to pay off the official even more money because it’s a higher fee.
You take the power from the people
What power?
2 edgy 4 me
You really don’t realize that a citizen can’t do anything bureaucracy-related without bureaucrats? Try registering a company entirely by yourself without any involvement of the government, then tell me how it’s working out for you.
Yeah that’s how governments function dude
Actually political researchers tend to note that corruption is pretty much unavoidable even in vaguely ‘democratic’ places like India, and that it indeed helps grease the apparatus where citizens want something done. I don’t have sources on me, but this is something I’ve read time and again.
Of course, India now has it really bad such that local officials straight up refuse to do their work. But OTOH, perhaps German bureaucracy could benefit from a little greasing.
Westerners tend to look at things like this from their entrenched perspective and stop at ‘bad thing is bad’, as if their own mechanisms guarantee that everything works simply by the wish of the common man.
I disagree but it is interesting to note that your conception of corruption essentially doesn’t make the distinction between extractive and quid-pro-quo.
Extractive corruption is where one party uses authority to essentially shake down someone else. A cop pulls you over for a spurious reason and demands $200 in cash to make it all go away on the spot, or you can fight it and maybe win in court after significant inconvenience, cost, or just be met with immediate violence. In any case, in this case there is a perpetrator and a victim and the victim gets nothing out of it other than getting screwed.
In quid-pro-quo type corruption, both parties benefit to some degree. So for example if you’re applying for a permit at a local government office and you need it done fast, you slip them $50 to bump it to the top of the queue. They get paid, you get your permit faster .
China’s anti-corruption efforts famously dealt very harshly with extractive corruption while allowing a certain degree if quid-pro-quo corruption on the basis that 1) you cannot fully eliminate corruption so you have to prioritize and 2) quid-pro-quo corruption actually meets a market demand that isn’t being met within the official system, as you noted. So long as the clerk continues to eventually process permits for people who don’t pay the $50 bribe , there is a certain like of logic that says that you might as well let that clerk keep doing this since not everyone needs permits fast.
This form of “allowed” corruption itself requires monitoring and regulation, though as it can easily turn extractive and such practices essentially require that the clerk have some reasonable fear of going too far.
The clerk could take the bribe and still not do your paper. What recourse is there when you operate outside the framework? Not much.
You could try bribing his boss, but likely he’s taking a cut as well from the clerk and wouldn’t even listen to your complaints.
Well, yes. I’m assuming honor where it shouldn’t be assumed.
You’re right, that is an incredibly bad take
It feels like with your system you’re mostly just heading to a world where demographics with lesser abilities/skills in various ways end up being penalized.
How does a mentally challenged person navigate government corruption? What about someone who just generally isn’t very bright? I know someone here is thinking along the lines of ‘maybe they should be penalized’ and I get that feeling but I don’t feel like I want to live in that world.
That’s a very good point. I was picturing a society where this is common and accompanied by a reduced government role, which would require more community support for people who have greater need of it, but that’s not very realistic.
I like where your heads at, minimizing bureaucracy and keeping government local. It’s an admirable goal, but it’s easy to forget that one of the intended purposes of bureaucracy at a basic level was to enforce fairness. We’ve strayed a lot from that, but the basic concept should be sound if we could figure out how to do it properly.
To me it sounds like you’re advocating for “tipping” public servants.
Welcome to Lithuania. Want to see a doctor? Gotta bribe the secratary. Wanna get those blood results? You better bring a fine whisky with you to give to the doctor himself
I actually appreciate you giving this take a ton because I think it’s important to think about corruption. I think a lot of people just view “corruption=bad” without diving into what it is or its impacts or why, specifically, corruption isn’t a good thing. And that sort of thinking is tied pretty hard into negative stereotypes of non-first world countries. (I majored in geography and took courses in geographies of development so this is very much my jam hah)
I might write a blog post about this at some point and make reference to this comment if I do. I can let you know when I do if you’re interested.
Edit: clarifying the actual nature of my education. Im not looking to Jared Diamond myself lmao
I’d definitely be interested in that, thanks!
Did you just re-tell the joke, but seriously?
That dude has a good point
