MJ calls what happened to her in Zion national park “small ‘T’ trauma”. She knows women have experienced worse from their partners. But she still feels the anger of being left behind on a hike by her now ex. “It brings up stuff in my body that maybe I have not cleared out yet,” she said.
Five years ago, MJ and a new partner – he was not exactly her boyfriend, and the pair were not exclusive – traveled from Los Angeles to Utah for an adventure getaway. MJ, who is 38 and works in PR, was looking forward to exploring Zion’s striking scenery; its vast sandstone canyon and pristine wading trails were on the list. But on the morning of their big hike, MJ was not feeling well. She could not shake the feeling that something was “off”; indeed, MJ would learn on this trip that her partner was seeing other women.
As they made their way up Angel’s Landing, MJ’s partner started walking faster than her. “I could tell it was getting on his nerves that I was slow,” she said. “I was like, ‘Fuck it, just go ahead of me.’” He did without hesitation.
When she caught up at the top of the mountain, they took a picture together. Then her partner hiked down the mountain with a woman he had met on the way up, leaving MJ to finish by herself. They broke up shortly after that trip. (MJ asked to be referred to by her initials for the sake of speaking openly about a past relationship.)
Last month, MJ opened TikTok and heard the phrase “alpine divorce”, a label she now attaches to her experience in Zion.
the pair were not exclusive
…
MJ would learn on this trip that her partner was seeing other women
…isn’t that was “not exclusive” means?
Casual partners may still prefer to know if their partner is sleeping with others for a variety of reasons. The first one that comes to mind is health.
Sure. My point is, though, isn’t that already implied by them not being exclusive?
They could be not exclusive but still agree to let the other know when they introduce a new sex partner.
Y’all never heard of safe sex?
Soooo, this guy was a dick, but aren’t you just defining “exclusive until we say we are not”?
Maybe I’m getting old and have lost the lingo (very possible) but I feel like we’re redefining exclusive here.
How would they be exclusive if additional sex partners are allowed? It’s not an asking for permission scenario, it’s just keeping your partners informed of who is involved.
I’ve mostly done so for health reasons.
I still think we are saying the same thing.
“Let’s not put labels on anything, let’s just choose to not have any other partners while we are sleeping together. If one us changes our mind about that, they should be up front with the other person about it.”
“Let’s be exclusive. If one us changes our mind about that, they should be up front with the other person about it.”
Am I missing something? Is “exclusive” used for a different definition now?
They could already have existing partners and wouldn’t be exclusive, but have an agreement to inform if there are new partners being added.
Also being exclusive is a more serious type of relationship than just friends with benefits imo.
The chance that they agreed on that and she wouldn’t mention it is slim, though
I’m shocked by this comment section… Guys defending some POS for leaving their non-committed partner on their own?
I mean, she said go on without me.
It’s an out and back. They waited for them up at the top.
To me the only shitty part is dumping them for another partner on the way down, goddamn that’s pretty shitty. We’re only hearing half the story though. Maybe she was being a jerk too and he didn’t want to put up with it.
Removed by mod
You don’t expect your BF to hook up with someone new mid-mountain.
Actually it says he wasn’t exactly her boyfriend either
Ok so it’s ok to abandon your fuck buddy. TIL
Nobody but you said that that part is OK.
You’re in a thread wondering about thee thread’s confusing description of their relationship status, not about the “leaving her behind” part.
Nobody but you missed the sarcasm. Or the moral behind it.
I was talking about the hooking up mid mountain part, which is what your comment I replied to was primarily about. And the OPs too.
You can just admit you missed that part instead of getting defensive.
I missed nothing. That is not important to the story. When you go into the wilderness with someone, you have formed an inherent defense pact and have a duty of care to each other. Hooking up mid mountain and leaving the other person, regardless of their relationship, is immoral. If harm comes to them, then it was likely illegal.
Your comment wasn’t talking about the “abandoning mid mountain” part. It was talking about the relationship status part. That’s the part I corrected. We weren’t, in this comment chain, talking about the overall story - it was about your comment on their relationship. Stop trying to build a strawman.
Geez, Americans really can’t admit they made even a minor mistake.
Adding you to my block list. Keep your petulant pedantry to yourself.
“I thought he was only seeing other men!”
Uhhhh
“seeing other women” means “not exclusive”
but “not exclusive” does not always mean “seeing other women”
He could be, just as one example of many, very unsuccessful at trying to see other women despite having an existing “nonexclusivity” agreement with her.
Yeah, this is just zoomers not realizing what they’ve signed up for.
A recent case study illustrates this point: last month, an amateur Austrian mountaineer was found guilty of gross negligence manslaughter for leaving his exhausted girlfriend behind on his country’s highest peak while he went in search of help. The man, a Salzburg chef identified only as Thomas P, said he was “endlessly sorry” for her death, and his lawyer called it a “tragic accident”. But Thomas P could not explain why he failed to wrap his freezing girlfriend in her emergency blanket before heading down the mountain without her. Earlier in their trek he had also told a police officer over the phone that they did not need any help, even though a rescue helicopter was made available to them.
I remember hearing about this one.
He had done it before with another woman, but she didn’t die. In the recent case, the dead woman’s family supported him. Even though he took their survival supplies. Very odd situation.
A new kind of serial killer 😂
This is so fucking sexist.
Hey everyone, women are just as capable of surviving in the mountains as men!
There’s some safety and ethical rules in the mountains. You don’t leave your hiking/climbing partner unless you both agree it’s fine. Gender of this partner doesn’t matter. Guy leaving another guy is equally bad as guy leaving a woman. Women are not inherently more prone to dying in the mountains than men. The fact that everyone treats this as someone abandoning a helpless person is infuriating. It’s shitty behavior but it would be equally shitty if this guy left his male friend or if she left him. It’s 2026, this is fairly progressive space and still everyone looks at with “women need protecting” mindset. It’s mind boggling.
When I see women in the mountains I don’t think to myself “oh my god, they are here without supervision? hope they will be fine!”. Am I the only one?
Yes, it is ethically wrong to leave anyone behind in the wilderness.
What has surfaced in the news more often recently is men doing this to women. Was that not clear from the article?
There was actually a case in Brazil recently where a girl left her male friend alone during a hike, and the guy got lost and stayed 5 days surviving alone in the jungle near the mountain until he was eventually found alive. Almost no news outlet mentions that he was abandoned, but there is a video from the girl who was supposed to be with him saying that she left him behind and out of her sight. No news outlet blamed the woman like they would if the gender roles had been reversed.
Was that not clear from the article?
No one throwing a fit about this article has actually read the article
Yeah, I started reading the other responses… Big oof.
I’ve actually been left alone on a trip before. I was the less experienced one, but I managed. Not trying to play the victim just saying it happens. I’m used to being left behind it’s so ordinary I wouldn’t call the news, (because when women do this to men it would never reach the news, and whyd I’d need this attention anyways)
When women do this to men it doesn’t reach the news.
Yeah, you’re right. I’m always complaining to my Bros how I’m sick of getting left in the woods by women. /s
Come on, why bother with the lie? Why not just paste a nice link to some stats? Get out of here, man.
Everyone I don’t agree with is lying
deleted by creator
What has surfaced in the news more often recently is men doing this to women. Was that not clear from the article?
There was one story from the Alps. That’s it. It looks like someone saw this story and tried to create a new phenomenon looking for stories that will fit the narrative. All assuming that when two adults go into mountains women are universally the ones that can’t take care of themselves and need help and it’s men’s responsibility to provide this help. It’s sexist.
It’s sexist in the way that it might depict only women suffering from this type of behavior, but I think that women do tend to be the major demographic that suffers from this type of behavior, which, to me, is a type of sexism that is nowhere near as harmful as the behavior it condemns. It’s not saying they can’t hike.
This type of abuse can happen literally anywhere. You’re out in the city and you’re not walking fast enough? Get ditched with no warning. And that’s the problem. There is usually some modicum of control that the people ditching (you can read this as men) have over the situation that leaves the partner in a vulnerable state. Sometimes they drove. Sometimes they know the way. Sometimes they have the experience. It’s an abuse tactic to do something like that.
So, idk man, calling this sexist and then pretending there’s some unrelated problem to address is a weird take.
Thank you. Weird ass take, I thought we left this shit on Reddit?
When I first moved to Lemmy from Reddit it wasn’t this bad. Now it’s no fucking different than when I worked in a sawmill, surrounded by shitty men.
I recognize your username now that I’ve been on lemmy for a minute and I always appreciate your contributions here <3
This place has a misogyny problem and looks no different than 4chan or early days of Reddit.
Right back atcha Velma. Always good to have comrads fighting beside you. :)
So it’s not just me thank you! Shocking to see. Honestly I feel impotent towards it, idk what one can do apart from organizing, and if one is to organize, what to do?
I think we just keep existing and being firm in our points of view. Downvotes from pouty men are a badge of honor now lol
Some women in the outdoors industry bridle at the gender stereotypes wrapped up in alpine divorce: chiefly, the assumption that a woman cannot take care of herself or has less experience outside than her male partner. “Believe it or not, we can do things that have nothing to do with men,” said Ellison, the Climbing editor. “I really struggle with saying ‘men do this,’ and ‘women do that,’ and those generalizations.”
Blair Braverman is a writer, adventurer and dogsled musher who has competed in the Iditarod and Kobuk 440. (She took 36th place in the 2019 Iditarod, becoming the first Jewish woman to finish the storied, 1,000-mile (1,609km) race.) “Personally, if I were with a man and he wandered away from me on a mountain, I’d be more worried for him than me,” she said. “I think it’s interesting that [the term] assumes that the woman is the one with less capability.”
If there is a feminist spin on alpine divorce, it’s what comes after the women are left behind. When her ex ditched her in Zion, MJ hiked alongside a friendly female stranger and her young son. Naomi helped the woman with vertigo in Arches. “It happened to me many years ago,” one user wrote in the comment section of the viral TikTok clip. “I met 2 girls on the mountain and told them what happened, and we walked down together. They wouldn’t let me go alone.”
The article also goes into this aspect of the conversation.
So some women in the industry agree with me. Good, I was starting to think everyone is sexist. I hated the excerpt so much I didn’t read the entire article. Nice to see they also covered it.
You should really read the article before you get all upset about how sexist it is.
I was referring more to the concept the article was talking about and the general attitude in comments under this and other similar posts as being sexist. It’s good that this article is somehow better at covering it but this doesn’t change how most people react to those stories.
It could have bolstered your argument if you had actually read the article before spouting off.
At the end of the day, it’s just women noting to others another way men can choose to abuse. It’s just another way for women to keep each other safe by sharing our stories.
Ok, I guess I didn’t consider leaving someone to hike alone abuse because in my experience women are perfectly capable of hiking alone. It’s like saying that leaving someone to shop alone in a mall is abuse. If it’s actually reasonable to assume women need male companion in the mountains then you’re right, it’s not sexists.
You’re ignoring the subtly to these stories - in a lot of cases, these women’s male partners were more experienced, were carrying more supplies, or were otherwise more prepared for going into the wilderness. So there’s an additional layer of danger when these men decide for whatever reason to leave behind their less experienced partner.
A shop is not the same as a hike in the wilderness. People do have different levels of experience and preparedness.
Reading the article would have shone a light on this for you.
I think the main takeaway here is that alpine divorce is an intent to murder. And yeh, it’s sexism. Not exactly in the way you’re putting it tho.
When they abandoned First Nations in Saskatchewan, and one made it back alive to tell people what was happening just like this woman is, the takeaway wasn’t that hey , gee, ya know they can survive being abandoned …it’s that they were abandoned to begin with WITH A VERY SPECIFIC INTENT TO DIE OUT THERE.
I think you not noticing that is the overall disgusting misogyny that society regularly overlooks and minimizes women’s right to life and safety should be considered not just that she can do it herself it’s that no one gives a shit if there was a chance she didn’t survive and how.
This shouldn’t be dismissed or minimized.
I think the main takeaway here is that alpine divorce is an intent to murder.
Assuming that women alone in the mountains will die is the sexist part. There are to aspects of this story:
-
men are breaking up with women in the mountains - if you can prove this is something men do but women don’t it’s a valid take. You can call it ‘alpine divorce’. It’s weird behavior. It would be interesting to learn why it happens (if it a real phenomenon)
-
more experienced hiking partners are leaving less experienced hiking partners alone in the mountains - this is shitty and dangerous no matter the gender. It’s about basic safety in the mountains
Both are valid concerns. It becomes sexists when you combine the two for no reason and assume women are always the less experienced person in the mountains. When I’m reading about it I’m imagining two adults going their way in the mountains. I don’t immediately assume one is responsible for the safety of the other only because of their genders. Because I’m not sexist.
The fuq did i just read. Looks like a manifesto written by a psychopath
Begone stupid bot.
Are you on drugs or something?
-
The difference being, it’s your fucking partner, and it’s guys doing it. No sexism here, just men being shitty partners. Shame them and move on instead of deflecting.
Yes, shitty men are shitty partners. Why is being shitty in the mountains different than being shitty anywhere else? All this is assuming that when a couple goes into the mountains men is responsible for women. Which is sexist. Both are adults, both can take care of themselves.
This isn’t deflection, it’s someone trying to start a deeper conversation. You know, the whole point of a comment section?
You’re overlooking that men tend to be attracted to this sort of activity more and may have greater experience. When they invite their inexperienced girlfriend, they have a duty of care towards them. You’re right, sex doesn’t matter and this could be reversed, but you need to ask yourself where the statistic lie.
This is not sexist. You’ve found the wrong conclusion.
Many of the women described having some level of dependence on their partner in nature. They may not have been carrying the right supplies or enough water, or were not familiar with the terrain, making them feel vulnerable.
“It’s such a common thing,” said Julie Ellison, the first female editor-in-chief of Climbing magazine who now works as an outdoor lifestyle photographer. She has heard “so many stories” about men fumbling outdoor dates. “There’s that male ego element to it that’s not necessarily evil or ill-intentioned, but it usually has a negative effect on the partner who’s being left behind.”
Yep! Also touched on in the article.
men tend to be attracted to this sort of activity more and may have greater experience
I live in hiking prime area. This is not true in any way.
Men historically outnumber women hikers, but the split is relatively close. Like 55-57% of hikers are men with women and non-binary making up the rest.
Not enough to suggest the “men are innately better hikers” thing the person I was replying to was alluding to.
You’re overlooking that men tend to be attracted to this sort of activity more and may have greater experience.
They didn’t suggest men are innately better hikers. They literally said men are attracted to this hobby in larger numbers and tend to have more experience doing it.
men are attracted to this hobby in larger numbers and tend to have more experience doing it
That’s my point. I call bullshit on that.
The gender breakdown of avid hikers results in more men than women hiking. About 55-57% of hikers are men.
I’m really not trying to like argue with you or anything, I just think you’re misreading what they meant. There are more men that hike than women statistically.
This is why anecdotal evidence has little use in the real world.
Yes but the story of MJ doesn’t talk about experience. It’s just talks about gender.
“It’s such a common thing,” said Julie Ellison, the first female editor-in-chief of Climbing magazine who now works as an outdoor lifestyle photographer. She has heard “so many stories” about men fumbling outdoor dates. “There’s that male ego element to it that’s not necessarily evil or ill-intentioned, but it usually has a negative effect on the partner who’s being left behind.”
But Ellision also says:
Some women in the outdoors industry bridle at the gender stereotypes wrapped up in alpine divorce: chiefly, the assumption that a woman cannot take care of herself or has less experience outside than her male partner. “Believe it or not, we can do things that have nothing to do with men,” said Ellison, the Climbing editor. “I really struggle with saying ‘men do this,’ and ‘women do that,’ and those generalizations.”
Blair Braverman is a writer, adventurer and dogsled musher who has competed in the Iditarod and Kobuk 440. (She took 36th place in the 2019 Iditarod, becoming the first Jewish woman to finish the storied, 1,000-mile (1,609km) race.) “Personally, if I were with a man and he wandered away from me on a mountain, I’d be more worried for him than me,” she said. “I think it’s interesting that [the term] assumes that the woman is the one with less capability.”
So there’s some acknowledgement that women can be just as capable of men in the outdoors, but I agree with you that the article tone is more of “women are helpless out in the wilderness and need a man to protect them”.
Society is very fucking sexist. In my experience (which is a small dataset), unprepared women are more likely to go on a hike with a man than the other way around. Men like to play the provider/protecter role. Women know that. Society has taught women to put themselves in a vulnerable position to appeal to men (movies… constantly). Some women seem to actually want to be “rescued” by thier man as well. Dunno if that is social training or something else. So yeah, it’s very sexist, but it is also a breaking of the social contract, and it is unacceptable. Even is the roles are reversed it would be unacceptable. It’s just less likely to happen.
Dunno if that is social training or something else.
It’s the patriarchy.
In general yes. But is the desire to be “rescued” from the patriachy or is it somehow a leftover instinct from a bygone era that the patriachery reinforces?
Damn what a cowardly way to dump someone. Is it really that much of a pain in the ass to stick it out for a couple of days until you’re not literally abandonning someone somewhere they didn’t expect to be alone? Bunch of douchy and selfabsorbed asshats.
For context, angel’s landing is one of probably the top 5 most famous hikes in the country. It’s so popular that they have timed entry, and you have to book a time well in advance. It would be very, very, very hard to get lost, you can see the spot you started from pretty much the whole way, you are part of a steady stream of people, and there’s cell service. There is no “alone” on that hike.
People have died on that hike, but if you exclude suicide and people who were intentionally going off trail to get pictures closer to cliff edges, it’s very unlikely. You are probably safer getting dumped there than at a restaurant in a part of town you aren’t familiar with.
I would not put that anywhere near the same category as guy who left his girlfriend on a mountaineering expedition.
My comment was mainly aimed at the general thought of just abandonning someone on any hike, not necessarily this particular one, but the whole “alpine divorce” thing in itself.
People can have problems on a hike that aren’t deadly but still require support. If a partner is slow it might be because they’re getting sick or injured. Even if the chance of them dying is low, it’s still your responsibility as their partner to look after them. No one else on that trail is going to have a higher responsibility to support them.
It seems like the man and the women in this story both had different expectations for what kind of partnership they had.
If I was hiking with a buddy where we were on equal footing and both self-sufficient, and we were pissing each other off, then I wouldn’t feel like I had any special responsibility to them over any of the normal shared responsibilities that all hikers have to each other. We would owe each other common courtesy, but wouldn’t need to babysit each other on the trail.
If I felt like I was responsible for the other person, because they weren’t self-sufficient, then of course I wouldn’t leave them behind.
If I felt like I was in a relationship with the other person, and we were pissed off with each other, then maybe I would hike ahead for a few minutes to give each other some time to cool off. But I wouldn’t leave them to hike the hike on their own, if I knew they wanted to hike it together. I would care about my partner in a different way and want to prioritize the relationship vs. a buddy I was friends with.
Although I guess it would depend on the friendship I had too. There are some friends who I would feel comfortable hiking separately to the summit if we pissed each other off. And there’s other friends who I think I would not do that with.
I could even imagine being partners with someone who would prefer to hike separately to reach the summit and then try to make up there.
I’m sure that things vary from place to place, but wherever I’ve been in nature, strangers are very quick to check on you and help you out if you seem to be struggling. Whether it’s hiking, mountain biking, skiing, or anything else, we all know that it could be us someday.
I think this comment section is so contentious because there is a whole range of behaviors and experiences that this story brings up in people. And we’re all trying to speak in generalities about situations that are very nuanced when they happen in the real world.
Is the timed entry a new thing? I remember just walking in to the park. Maybe I was in the off season because it had just snowed the week before and there were still a few campsites closed.
I think it’s relatively new. It might also be seasonal. Last time I was there, they let you hike all the way up to the scout lookout before you need the permit. Basically as soon as you get to the bottleneck of the chain section.
Well, damn. That particular location would suck to be turned around at, because you’re so close…
But I can also see how having too many people at the last outcropping would lessen the experience for everyone.
My guess is once you get too many people on that segment, you’ll inevitably get someone moving crazy slow, and people going off trail to get around them.
The spot you have to turn around at least has a great view, lol.
Or to call it off before you start hiking. Or even to stick together not happy and not liking each other on your way back
Don’t expect good things from shitty people.
Women need to learn how to identify womanizers if they don’t want to be womanized. Most of them don’t care though so it keeps happening.
I hear what you’re saying about staying away from shitty people, but anyone can lie about who they are short term, and when women are wary of all men in order to stay safe, we get hit with “not all men.” It’s a real lose-lose.
Astounding that there are men in here defending these dickbags left right and centre. And presumably other men just like yep good point bro, technically correct. Please dump me and run off a fucking cliff you spineless turdweasels
This idea that it’s totally normal and cool to start a hike with someone and then decide to leave them behind is mindboggling.
Yeah. Even if you figure out halfway through that you hate spending time with them you just fucking walk the rest of the way with them in silence. Sometimes things don’t go how you hoped and you have a bad day. Deal with it.
This! Fucking grow up
This sounds like an actual nightmare.
Lemmy is better than Reddit but there are still terrible trolls and awful people here.
I’m willing to accept that it’s better in ways not relevant to this discussion, but tbh the ubiquitous casual misogyny is far more inescapable here imo
yes, I feel like Lemmy has a misogyny problem :-(
I’ll admit that I had not noticed it before but it makes sense in light of other threads I have seen. There are a lot of people who act just like the meme angry vegan, the meme angry incel, or the meme angry tankie around here. It is disappointing, but humans are going to be human no matter where they are.
There are absolutely legit reasons to leave someone behind on a hike.
And I’ve heard zero of them in these stories from women.
Well, leave behind yes, abandon no. If they’re injured and you need to go for help, you make them safe as you can and then go. He did not make any effort to make her safe.
A bunch of tech-focused men have shitty views about women? Color me shocked. /s
The guys who can’t muster up the courage to talk to a woman sure have a lot of opinions about them, don’t they?
I actually expected far more defenders than I am seeing. Mostly I see some forms of victum blaming, though not directly defending the men’s actions. I do see some discussion too, which is pretty rare on subjects like this. Still a long way to go, but it’s a baby step forward I guess.
And some men wonder why some women would choose a bear.
A bear would totally run away and abandon you on a hiking trail. No difference there.
Speaking from experience.
*results may vary in Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, and Alaska.
TBF bears are pretty great. Bears probably win over women, too.
I would choose a teddy bear over any human in the woods.
Just a few weeks ago I saw a dude have an argument with his partner on top of Cradle Mountain and then head down before her. We kept an eye on her to make sure she made it down OK (sketchy down climbing). He was at the bottom of the steep bit on his phone when we got there… She caught up and they seemed fine, but it was a weird vibe.
I went with my ex to a local waterfall once. It was pretty dry, so I wanted to explore the top of the falls a bit since it’s normally not accessible. It’s very flat up there, and I kept back from the edge since I don’t like heights anyway, but she got mad at me for being up there since she didn’t feel comfortable coming out with me.
So a couple minutes later, I’m done poking about, and I turn around and she’s nowhere to be seen. Now I’m worried she went over the side and something happened to her. I started looking over the edge of the hill leading up to the falls and trying to see if she’s down there, but there was enough water to still be spraying the rocks. My foot slides out on a wet patch, and now I’m falling down the rock face!
I crashed off at least 3 ledges on my way down, and was flipping over and trying to grab onto things to catch myself, but there was nothing but rock and moss, but I finally come to a stop. I have no clue how I didn’t die or break anything. It was one of the scariest moments of my life. After I checked on my own life, I saw she wasn’t there, so I made my way to the car. She was there just being annoyed.
She seemed to think I deserved it for not listening to her for saying it was dangerous, while it was not the activity I was doing that led to me falling, but that I thought I needed to be looking for her after she disappeared without saying she was going to the car. I don’t think she must have realized it was not just one rock I fell off of, but probably at least 10+ feet of rock, but needless to say I wasn’t very appreciative of her lack of concern. I was just grateful to be alive at that point. I was sore for a few days and had some bruises that lasted a couple months. Was I a jerk? I don’t feel so, but I don’t believe remote places in the outdoors are the place to put arguments ahead of everyone’s safety either way. If I would have gotten hurt badly, who knows how long she would have sat there before looking for me.
Damn, you’re both lucky things didn’t go worse. “I told them it was too dangerous, then I left them alone anyway, and they died from their injuries” would be a hell of a thing to have on one’s conscience, let alone one thing to admit on the defendant’s stand.
I mean, you’re (presumably) an adult who can take responsibility for your own actions, but if she was truly concerned for your safety, abandoning you makes no sense. No matter how skilled my partner might be, I’d be waiting at the edge watching like a hawk, not saying anything, just making sure their stunt didn’t end the way I feared it would. There’s plenty of time for arguments about it when we’re both back on solid ground. Literally turning away and walking off at the height of a dangerous act while alone in nature doesn’t say “I’m concerned about your safety” as much as it says “I’m emotionally-immature and can’t prioritize your actual well-being above my personal feelings.”
Glad to hear she’s an ex.
You are very correct. We both could have regretted the events much more than we did.
When I see parents take their smaller children places, I count them as “not dangerous.”
This is where I was.
People will photograph each other chilling there all the time. I don’t want to get close enough to see over the edge since I don’t like heights, I just wanted to walk on the creekbed.
This is still at the top of the falls, but more indicitive of the side of the falls where she “disappeared” on me and what I was looking for her in. What I bounced off on the way down was three or so of those big boulders to the right of the tree there.
IMO, that incident was ¾ your fault.
I’m sure I deserve partial credit. I was in a bad place mentally back then so I did a lot of stupid and inconsiderate things I regret. But I’m also now with someone who wouldn’t walk away from me even when I am being an idiot because they care about my safety, so I learned a lot of lessons since then.
I mean what else are you gonna do? Have an escalating fight while you are in an emotionally unstable state? Walking away to calm down is just the right thing to do often, that doesnt change just because you are on a hike.
The cases in the article sound like there is more to them though.
Walk back silently while in sight of each other, or if you really need time and space, take it while neither of you continues to hike. Or just fucking get a hold of your emotions to finish the damn hike.
Especially on a hike, it’s far safer when you’re not super upset about something.
You can have a fight and still look out for each other’s wellbeing. If this was a walk on very safe flat terrain, maybe you’d have a point, but this was kilometres of intense scrambling and climbing over steep boulder fields with serious risk of injury. I’m a OK rock climber, and there were parts that freaked me out.
Some of these comments are absolutely disgusting, many of you guys desperately need to talk to a therapist. If you read a story like this and feel the need to defend your gender identity, you have some deep-seated insecurity which you should take seriously before it starts harming your relationships with others. I am saying this as a man who had deep-seated insecurity which took a heavy toll on my relationships before seeking years of therapy. It’s not as expensive as it sounds, I promise, and it could totally change your life for the better.
+1
I’m honestly ashamed of my sex.
I get it, I’ve witnessed guys have gut wrenching experiences with women, but… come, on. Do y’all have to internalize that as misogyny?
Articles like this are 99% trash
So are some comments.
So two or three “credible” stories over a century qualify for this headline? Seems a bit inflated.
I mean… it’s not a nice thing to do to someone but… eh…
What is everyone’s problem with women sharing these stories though? We’re not allowed to speak about these instances because you decided it doesn’t happen frequently enough?
That’s not what I’m saying. Don’t make it about something it’s not.
If something happens a handful of times… it’s barely a story.
That’s literally what your comment is saying - that this type of abuse doesn’t happen enough to warrant attention. Why do you have a problem with women sharing stories like this?
Apparently you can’t read.
So two or three “credible” stories over a century qualify for this headline? Seems a bit inflated.
I mean… it’s not a nice thing to do to someone but… eh…
Care to elaborate? Because you are clearly expressing that this doesn’t happen enough for people to actively talk about it.
Apparently you can’t write lol
I think sharing is fine, and the actions of these boys are deplorable. But the story makes it out to be a major trend, instead of just sharing the stories. And to me, that is likely to make it happen more often, not less. So that bothers me.
“Shhhh don’t talk about abuse you’ve suffered because it might bring more abuse”
Do you ever look yourself in the mirror? You keep misrepresenting what other people are saying and being an ass, but in another comment you complain it’s impossible to have a conversation with someone because they are being scornful.
I’m guessing this is why you have a new account; probably banned a lot for being a dick.
I was thinking the same. Some people just enjoy a fight. Triggers adrenaline and such. I do feel bad for them that they don’t have better ways to get happy feels.
I’d agree, and this sounds more of a failure of communication and expectation setting from the get go, from both parties.
Why would the woman in the story have to express that she expects her partner to hike with her the whole time?
Edit: Who are all you men who think that it’s acceptable to abandon your hiking partner while on a hike?? What the fuck is happening here?
Because it obviously wasn’t clear to her partner. Instead of assuming, communicate. Women do this often and yes I’m generalizing but men aren’t mind readers. Different people will have different expectations unless you talk and agree.
How is it not clear that when planning a hike where there is only 2 people, that the assumption is those 2 people stay together unless there’s an emergency?
That’s the whole issue here, right? Why are these men deciding on their own that they no longer want to hike with these women and are abandoning them on the mountain? Why didn’t these men communicate with their partner?
You are again assuming. It’s obvious you shouldn’t. The confusion is your own.
Why didn’t these men communicate to their partner that they no longer wanted to hike with them?
Balanced take. This kind of thing is very veryserious. But also a dilution of the term Alpine Divorce, which people have died from.
Any of these women in the stories could have died while alone on a hike. That’s sort of the point.
But it is also not true that they were at risk? Any more than you could die anywhere.
You don’t think it’s more dangerous out in the wilderness than walking an aisle in a Target?
I disagree that a popular trail with many people can be called wilderness, but I would be okay calling it a backcountry location.
There are not too many things that can harm you on such a trail compared to another comparable physical activity, like playing soccer on a field for instance. The main difference is that it is harder to get to definitive care if you do get hurt.
On the soccer field, the ambulance pulls up in 5-10 minutes when you sprain an ankle or get stung by a bee and your airway closes up. On the hike, ideally you splint yourself and walk out if you roll your ankle, And do anything you can if you get that bee sting and have a life-threatening anaphylaxis, including call 911, lie down flat on your back, take bandadryls if you have them, and use your epipan if you have it.
But in both these cases you’re never really alone because there are so many other people. And on the trail, there’s probably a higher chance of encountering somebody with first aid training than on the soccer field.
To be honest, I’m not sure what exactly the context of your question was, but I assume it has something to do with leaving somebody to hike alone on these popular trails like angel falls or delicate arch in general.
In the specific example of the article, I don’t think it was a super big deal that the original person left her to go home with another woman, because she didn’t seem too much in danger, just emotionally hurt. She even told him to go on and hike ahead of her. In the worst case, there are plenty other people who would help her if she were to roll an ankle, have car trouble, or something. And she had cell service the whole time. To me, this isn’t that different than getting up and leaving somebody in the middle of a jog in a nice neighborhood that you arrived at separately, if you had a fight with them. The biggest difference being the response time of EMS.
From reading these other comments, though, a lot of people seem to feel like being left alone on a hike would be more stressful than being left alone in the front country, which I don’t really understand, but I can accept that people would feel like that. I would hate to be abandoned at a party or at a bar, for instance – It’s not somewhere I’m comfortable at all. And I’d much rather walk back to my car alone on a popular well marked trail in the daytime.
The example of the woman at Delicate Arch is more confusing since it seems she actually was having a medical issue of some kind giving her vertigo. I don’t think the two should have separated in that case, but it’s really hard to decipher what actually happened in that situation, Especially having just one side of the story.
The example that involved the woman dying in the mountains is wildly different to me. I really don’t like how much male ego the guy seems to have in that he had abandoned previous partner on a different trip and how he had declined a helicopter rescue for both of them when they were first in trouble. In my opinion, he killed the person he was with by doing that.
There seems to be no world to me in which the situation on the angel falls trail is at all comparable to the gross negligence in that last example.
I live in an area that is densely wooded and has many, many hiking trails of various difficulty. It is always taught here that you need to be aware and ready for danger on any hiking trail, no matter how popular.
Wild animals and falls are absolutely a thing that makes being in the wilderness more dangerous than say a soccer field as you used for an example.
I don’t think it’s ever ok to leave a hiking partner except in cases of emergency when there’s only 2 people in the group and especially not because one of those people is being a jerk and won’t explain why or what they’re feeling or want to do. The lack of communication from the men in these situations outlined by the article is astounding especially for those situations.
I think we will have to agree to disagree on some points due to different backgrounds. On extremely crowded trails near me, danger from wildlife is just not common where I’m from. If I was in California, maybe I would have to worry about mountain lions, but even they do not like crowds, so I’m not sure what wild animals you are considering a risk. I think probably the most risky animal would be something you could get a bee sting and anaphylaxis from, which would be more dangerous in the back country, I agree. But it doesn’t seem significantly different if you are hiking alone and the person right behind you calls 911 in 20 seconds when they reach you, or if the person right next to you calls 911.
Some trails have fall potential and some don’t. It would be a very different thing to leave somebody to attempt half dome on their own versus a nice hike in the woods, even when going up to a pleasant summit.
I’ve heard kayakers say never boat alone, but where I live at least the same thing is not true for hiking, mountain biking or even rock climbing for that matter. Maybe that’s a rule of thumb in your area that just doesn’t exist here. I would definitely never ever swim alone, though. The common training here for hikers is to carry the ten outdoor essentials even on easy hikes, and practice leave no trace, including step 1: Always let somebody know where you’re going and when you’ll come back.
To me the biggest issue here is communication. If I was expecting to meet my hiking partner back at the car, but when I got there they had driven off already, I would be really miffed, not knowing what happened. It would be even worse if their car was there, but they were not there.
On the other hand, if they told me, hey, I’ve got to leave early, I’m going to head back to the trailhead now, and I said, okay, fine, I’ll see you next time and finish the hike on my own. I don’t see any problem doing that. To me, there’s no set in-stone rule against hiking alone, the way there is for swimming alone or boating alone, because it is just not as risky, and, in fact, is quite routine. That’s why it’s hard for me to call most back country areas near me ‘wilderness’, because they are so close to civilization, so dominated by human impacts that there is just so little added risk that you wouldn’t have in the front country.
I’m referring to bears, wolves, coyotes, and wildcats primarily. California is similar. There’s large swaths of the US that are still very much wilderness even if there is a human population nearby.
So yes, perhaps our different perspectives is what is putting us at such odds over what a big deal this is. I would be very upset at a man who is visibly pissed off at me but won’t communicate and keeps pushing ahead of me without saying what he wants.
Every day I’m thankful that I’m not romantically interested in men.
So many downvotes from pouty boys hahaha
Men on lemmy are 100% the socialist boyfriends who don’t do the dishes, you can tell by what they support and get pissed at. Orange man bad because fat and stupid? They love it and it makes them confident they aren’t one of the baddies. Patriarchy is bad and I don’t like men because of how it socializes them? They correctly call me evil.
Wahhh, somebody downvoted me!
I can see that.
Have you ever tried NOT generalizing 50% of the population? Surely deep down you know that’s not the right thing to do?
I can’t stress enough how much I don’t give a shit about potentially being unfair to men who think it’s a moral injustice to point out that liberals are still misogynistic even if they think orange man bad. Maybe you should look deep down and get lost up your own ass.
They really get upset when women tell them we don’t care.
Spend all this time shouting down at us and telling us we’re stupid for choosing the wrong men? Ok, we won’t choose any of you fuckers.
You are being unfair to men who do not fit that description, because you are making a generalization about all men. I don’t understand why you would choose to be hostile rather than understand your actions.
Yes, you don’t understand and yet presume you know better. That’s the problem.
Then explain yourself.
Its the absurd generalizations that are the problem.
What’s absurd about someone being thankful they aren’t interested in men?
Please explain what you like about Star Trek when systemic analysis is “generalizing” to you?
How likely do you think the downvoters are to be the one criticizing the dude for abandoning the woman vs. the ones upset he’s being criticized?
Because I think the dude was shitty as hell and thus should theoretically be the type of man offended at being lumped in with him, but I get it. Women don’t know if they’re going to get my type of man or the type who will ditch them on a trail until it happens. And I’m pretty sure it we go through the effort to check those downvotes we’re not going to see many of them commenting about how this guy was in the wrong and instead a lot of empathizing with the shitty man.
I find it very hard to predict how others will act so I can’t answer this in the general case, but I know I’ve downvoted many of the generalizing comments here while also obviously understanding that it’s wrong to abandon your partner in the woods (although I agree that it’s incorrect to assume the woman in these scenarios is always the one who’s less prepared). I don’t doubt that some people are just butthurt but there is certainly a logically coherent position that fits the voting pattern you’re looking for.
same bro. same
Well, maybe you can be a lesbian one day if you try hard enough.
I know this isn’t really the same, but the article struck a chord with me and the experiences I have with my fiance. She convinced me to buy and play Arc Raiders. (It’s an extraction shooter.) This isn’t the type of game I normally play. I am not good. She made a run for an extraction point, and didn’t wait for me to be in the elevator before pressing the button to extract, leaving me stranded with the enemy everywhere. (She’s run way ahead of me in game before and I’ve taken issue with it and explained I feel abandoned when she runs way ahead without me.) The last time we played, I happened to make it to the elevator before her, and I made a point to say, “are you in the elevator,” before pressing the god damned button.
Obviously, I wasn’t in real danger, but those experiences have made me wary of depending on her.
Exactly why I started refusing to play video games with my ex-husband.
As you said no danger in your situation but it seems like your fiancee had the same mindset as the hikers (inpatience and disregard for other persons wellbeing).
Co-opting alpine divorce, which regularly involves a murder attempt, feels weird? Just call it the sierra split.
I do wonder how much of this is a cheapening of the weekend getaway, where you’d go to a B&B upstate, find out your potential partner snores, drinks to much, is rude to service workers, or views a toothbrush as optional. You’d sigh and split. It’s just a bad weekend.
But with this, camping and hiking is a complication. You’re drinking warm filtered water from a Nalgene, eating granola because someone forgot to bring a lighter. Also, it’s raining and all your socks are wet. Did you bring anything to wash dishes? Ah, there are no dishes. You smell like smoke and are covered in sand.
Granted, you can do camping/hiking well, but I’d bet some of these cases are from people doing it poorly, trying to save a buck by avoiding more expensive weekend getaways.
The article literally goes over a recent case where a man killed his girlfriend by leaving her in the wilderness on a hike.
But sure, I bet she died only because they realized they aren’t compatible in a relationship.
Are you talking about the famous case? Where the guy declined the helicopter rescue, and later left his partner without being wrapped in a sheet to get help? That one sounds way more alpine than getting ditched on a crowded hike.
Yeah it’s in the article
but I’d bet
So no proof then. Guesses don’t count.
Ok your honor I’m sure they’ll follow the rules of the courtroom next time
Y’all expect women to kowtow to the men in here, we’re allowed to push back.
So many assumptions about the women in these stories and none of ya even read the damn article.
Women are allowed to share our abuse stories. Deal with it.
Why would my response have anything to do with the gender of the person I’m replying to? How do you expect me to even know that information? How do you know I’m not a woman? (I’m not, just pointing out that immediately making this a men vs women thing is bad.)
It’s clear from our comments that OP and myself are women.
You can pretend that lemmy isn’t overwhelmingly male dominated at this time, but I won’t.
I didn’t make this a men vs women thing, it had already become that days ago.
Lemmy is absolutely male dominated, I just don’t like perpetuating the gender war discourse. There are some reasonable takes in here and I would prefer not to have it be drowned out by the “women weak” and “men evil” takes I’ve seen being tossed around.
Then maybe you should be calling out your fellow men rather than pushing back against the few women in here.
I would never leave my girlfriend stranded on a hike. I need her for if there is a bear.
I don’t care who you are, you should never go to a place with someone that you are not capable of leaving alone.
Remind me never to get on an airplane or train.
Buses questionable.
When you get on a plane, they do a whole safety announcement, pointing out the exits. Trains and busses have legally mandated labeling for exits. You are well informed how to get out on your own.
Yeah for planes I’m not worried about how to use the door, I’m worried about how I get from 20 000+ feet to ground level, safely.
For trains and buses it’d be more about hiking out from the middle of nowhere.
Either case I’m not actually worried, just saying that the logic of “trust no one but yourself” is flawed.
It’s less about trusting no one and more about recognizing that something could happen to the person you are with, like a medical emergency for example, and that you should be able to survive on your own. Say you are hiking with someone and they fall and break their leg. Do you both just lay there and die? You need to be able to get yourself back to safety and to get help.
So should everyone bring their own rope/tent/boat/… to any activity where they are usually shared?
How about activities where noone can safely leave on their own?All I am saying is that if the person you are with drops dead, you should be able to take care of yourself. That’s just sensible.
“A man is not a plan”
