Yes… it’s like default settings. The very action of changing a setting on any devices means you are a “power user”. You made a conscious decision on how the device should behave and you suspect it can be done. Meanwhile the vast majority of users do not even consider this a possibility.
Windows users are not using a computer, they are doing another task that happens to required a machine, they don’t learn about what it is, how it works, how it can be modified.
IMHO it was perfectly in the 70s when there was no laptop, desktop, mobile phone, mobile data. Now that one needs to use such infrastructure to interact with others, vote, pay bills, get access to culture, etc then I do believe computer literacy is not optional anymore.
Pretty sure you can change plenty of settings in Windows.
So they are power users by your own logic.
My point isn’t the availability of settings as a meaningful information but rather if somebody did change a setting, or not. If somebody changes a default setting, or a default OS, they are radically more likely to be a power user.
It’s like that, but it’s not the whole picture. That’s how it starts. Then they get to something they can’t change and start trying to figure out why. Then in their web searches they stumble into a Linux forum…
(True story)
If I can’t resize the giant taskbar, then what’s the point?
I don’t get why people on Lemmy care so much about either of them so passionately, I passively see more Linux vs Windows in a week here than basically the rest of my life before joining this site. Is every other person here some kind of computer science enthusiast or something like that?
It’s because Lemmy is a techy tinkering hub. The same skills and interests needed to be aware of and migrate to Lemmy lend themselves to people migrating to Linux.
Both are free and open source and arguably better than the alternatives of reddit and windows so of course there are a bunch of dorks on here trying to get you to switch.
Both also cut down on how much you can be spied on and manipulated by algorithms so that’s a big incentive to convert people too.
Edit: btw you should switch to linux
The principles that make Lemmy attractive are the same principles that people like about Linux: freedom, openness, tech independence. The list could go on.
Point is, it’s safe to say that if you like either one, you’re more likely than the average person to like the other as well.
Is every other person here some kind of computer science enthusiast or something like that?
That’s a fair way to sum it up, yeah. Politics aside, we like to tinker with tech and Linux is inherently tinker-able.
Lemmy, like linux, has a very small learning curve that keeps out most people.
Because there is an ethical implication is using Linux vs Windows.
Windows is the De Facto choice since Windows 95 at least. And Microsoft is steering computers in a anti-consumers space. So for many people, using Linux isn’t simply using a different OS but it is also a ethical statement.
Yes, most lemmings use Linux and because you have to care about your choice of operating system at least a little bit for Linux there is a lot of talk about it here
I don’t get why people on Lemmy care so much about either of them so passionately
Weirdos who feel the need to let everyone know their team is superior, so they can feel superior. Its just as dumb as apple vs. android or Xbox vs playstation vs pc. Guys, It’s ok to like what you do and NOT shit on people who don’t do what you’re doing.
I want people to have a free alternative to windows that actually let’s them know what’s under the hood, I understand that elitism absolutely exists in the Linux community, but most of us just want to see you enjoy an operating system that respects the user and isn’t at the mercy of techbro man children.
Some folks, sure.
But think of it like lemmy vs reddit. It’s not just a brand war. One of those is not really a brand at all. It doesn’t have marketers, it earns no profit, and was made to spread control around rather than to move it to a new platform.
Ig yea, I do use Linux too, but the “Linux VS WindOws” bs OS wars is everywhere tbh, but yea- if you are on reddit, you wouldnt see it cuz the algorithm knows you don’t care- on the other hand if I open reddit rn (I haven’t opened it in, god knows how long) I bet, the first post that gets shoved in my face is some fuckass stupid OS war rage bait.
One of the Reason I quit reddit was because of this kind of negative engagement farming kind of posts just filling up my feed, This place is better compared to reddit on that case, but because there’s not a prominent algorithm that tracks you, what you see is what everyone mostly sees and Ig somany privacy consious people who switched to lemmy, also uses some form operating system that respects their choice.
Honestly i don’t see much pro windows stuff here. Mainly just hate for it.
But yeah the thought-journey to reach Lemmy from Reddit is a very similar journey to reaching Linux from Windows.
Lemmy is quite a niche platform on the fediverse. Its open source and run by a bunch of volunteers. This is very likely to attract technical people to a much greater extent, when comparing it to other social Media platforms. This naturally means, that we have a userbase, that cares about technical topics (like Linux) to a much greater extent than on other sites.
This is true! Ignorance of Linux is the no1 reason people don’t adopt it. This is doubly hard for Window-brains because the concept of choosing an OS is foreign to them. From their perspective it’s your boss, your school, or your parents who choose your OS.
Even though I highly support Linux and what it’s thriving to be, but comments like this are why people don’t switch. Calling people names never is a good idea to get them to support your cause.
Exactly. If we want people to switch to Linux, we need to make sure they are going to have a good experience. That means to accept that there are still some use cases that Windows is better for, at least for some people. If all you use your gaming rig for is LoL or you spend 99% of your workday in Excel, it doesn’t make sense to switch. Linux will be there for them when they’re ready.
i mean, i used to spend 99% of my workday in excel. I could have jumped to libre but then making sure all my formulae worked for everyone else in the office on the sheets i shared would have been a pain. the other 1%, those programs don’t work on linux at all. not even on wine, last i checked (which was a while). so while i was technically in charge of all the computers in the office, it was not worth moving over there.
at home, dammit i just spent 8 hours doing two jobs and one of them was unpaid IT consultant you want me to figure out a new OS for free?
that’s why it took me so long.
Do we want the kind of people who are afraid of Linux to switch to Linux though? I feel like those people should stay on Windows until Linux adoption is just too overwhelming. Let the people who actually want to explore and try new things switch first, cause they’ll be more useful at providing feedback, and less likely to hurt the community.
Like, was it a good thing that Linus did his first Linux challenge? It was a lot of press, but a lot of it was bad. Maybe that is a good thing and I’m just wrong here. I feel like in his second challenge he was much more open to actually trying something new, and kind of realized that he doesn’t actually know anything about computers, but just Windows.
I don’t think being afraid is a big problem, if you are also motivated to try it. If you’re afraid and have a good experience anyway, that’s a good thing. If you were afraid and have a bad experience, you’ll likely not try it again for a long time, if ever. The key difference is what kind of experience you have. If the bad experience can be avoided in the first place, for example by telling that their game will not work, then nothing was lost. They may try again when they’re bored with that game.
If they have a community to help them make the right decision and choices along the way, they can have a good experience. I think the point I’m trying to emphasize is that the community should try hard to set them up for success rather than cheerleading: “go for it! it worked great for me!”
I hear your point about Linus (of LTT) and yes he gave Linux “bad press”, but I think it helps balance the hype with some realism of “it doesn’t work for everyone”.
I wouldn’t call Linus an average user though. I liked watching Switch and Click’s journey with Linux. She starts out knowing basically nothing, but with a can-do and eager-to-learn attitude. She worked through it and now has become quite the Linux power user. I think that that is more encouraging and relatable to the average computer user. I think it’s the way to go in general: be encouraging and positive, but also be honest about the rough edges.
It’s also about setting realistic expectations and not overselling the product. Tons of people install Linux on either bleeding edge hardware (no vendor support) or an older, secondary computer (well supported, but slow) and they experience that as “Linux is bad”.
They may expect their proprietary software to work and it doesn’t. Then they have to go back to Windows after they had finally worked up the courage to try Linux. I think it’s fine to say “I don’t think Linux will work well for you” before they get into that situation.
I, myself, despite having used Linux off and on since the mid-90s, didn’t fully commit to a Linux desktop until a year ago. I built a new PC for it, knowing it would run only Linux and with parts I knew would work. I knew exactly which programs I had to give up on and find alternatives for. I made an informed choice and I’ve never been happier with my PC after switching.
That’s what I mean though. Like, if Linus had asked me if he should switch to Linux, I would have said no. He’s not good with computers. He’s kind of an idiot. And he’s also not a big fan of reading.
Whereas I would say Switch and Click is a great candidate for switching to Linux because she clearly knew that she knew very little about it (at the time), and she wanted to learn. She didn’t go into it thinking all of her knowledge of Windows would translate to knowledge of Linux like Linus did.
So I guess what I mean is we shouldn’t be encouraging everyone to switch to Linux, like you said. Some people just want the easiest, least thought required solution, and that’s Windows. Everything “just works” (except when it doesn’t), because when it doesn’t work, Windows users just think “oh, computers can’t do that”. (Or they pay someone else to do it, eg Geek Squad.)
Yep I think we’re on the same page. Let’s take care of the Bettys and accept that the Linuses will be happier staying on Windows.
Do we want the kind of people who are afraid of Linux to switch to Linux though? I feel like those people should stay on Windows until Linux adoption is just too overwhelming.
I feel like people should use whatever OS they want. Why do you care if some guy installs Linux and isn’t comfortable with it? Computers don’t care what “kind of people” are using them.
As long as he keeps to himself, I don’t care. It’s when he a. annoys me or other devs by asking questions that are already answered in the documentation or readily available online, or b. tells people how hard/terrible Linux is because he had a bad experience using a thing he purposefully misunderstood, that he becomes a problem for the Linux community. Then, I care.
We should not be encouraging people to try Linux if they are the kind of people who do those things.
The next argument is, “well, we should make Linux friendly to Windows users,” and I think that mentality is disgusting. Windows has dog shit UX, and we 100% should not be borrowing from it.
Ok, but, like, who cares? If someone wants to eat a pile of shit to stick it to the burger enjoyers, let them.
Apparently enough people to comment on that.
I think most of normal users don’t even know what an OS is, so they don’t think who is choosing it.
Having taught a computer science course on Operating Systems it’s even tough to teach a room full of CS undergrads what one is.
i wonder if teaching them to write bare metal embedded software first would prime them to learn about operating systems. i studied mechanical engineering in school so a bit different education than cs. i know i didnt really get what an operating system was for until i worked on some bare metal software in aerospace. nothing teaches you the value of something faster than trying to do without it.
I definitely agree. I have the luxury of coming from an Electrical Engineering / Computer Engineering background. I did microcontroller programming, designed ALUs, and transistor level work before moving into CS.
Nothing helps you understand a computer better then working with a small microcontroller and building up from there.
Is Linux an OS or a kernel?
I’d just like to interject for a moment. What you’re referring to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX. Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called “Linux,” and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project. There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use.
Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine’s resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called “Linux” distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux.
… is this a copypasta?
Yep.
It’s fucking beautiful
Yes, are you genuinely asking?
Yep. It had the copypasta cadence but I hadn’t seen it before.
Oh sorry for the giant copypasta then, I though you were just joking. Yes, by definition, Linux is not an OS, just the kernel, the base of an OS basically, the thing that decides how many memory each process gets, how much CPU time can one get, communicates with the disk so that programs can access files on the file system and much more. It is however used commonly to refer to an OS with Linux as its kernel (a Linux distribution/distro). You may have heard of some popular Linux distros, such as Debian, Fedora, Ubuntu and Arch Linux. Those are operating systems that use Linux as their kernel, however they are commonly referred to as just “Linux”.
I hope I explained it well, it’s 1 am here right now and I probably should go to sleep.
Linux was originally just the kernel back in the 90’s. Combined with the GNU libraries and all the free software it is now an OS. You can call it GNU/Linux if you like. Much better explained by olenokoVD just here.
I talked to some colleagues some time ago and they had never heard of Linux. The very concept of different operating systems was news to them. We still have a long way to go.
I work with computers and end up with some old e-waste stuff every so often so Im like the person in the family that supplies people with computers, its kind of funny to me that Ive given people linux machines and they just dont notice the difference really. no one seems to install software much these days. One person I gave a linux pc to just uses steam to play her hello kitty game and uses the browser which by default is firefox, I was worried about it not being chrome but when I asked she didnt seem to mind since she uses an iphone she never really setup a google account, so no bookmarks or anything to worry about
yeah, i have a friend (who worked in film for a while for godssakes. Mac had way better video editing software for the longest time) who thought that Mac and Windows were just different brands and there was no functional difference except price.
You forgot “it came on the computer and it works fine”.
Windows has so little competition, most people are oblivious to choosing an OS at all.
I have the privilege of never having to think about windows. Once in a blue moon I am forced to help someone using it and I am absolutely baffled at how anyone can accept to daily drive it. You all are in an abusive relationship and you have no idea.
Even Microsoft are now renting Linux VMs on their cloud infrastructure.
Large majority of windows users never have a single thought about Linux users because they don’t know Linux exists.
The average Linux evangelist on Lemmy vastly overestimates the tech-saviness of the average person.
I know, the average person probably only knows 2, maybe 3 distros Max
And Mint
Yes, of course Mint
Then you find the average windows user doesn’t even know what Windows is.
There truly is an xkcd for everything.
“What’s a Linux?”
One of my fav xkcds, nice adaptation. (here for those uninitiated)
hey, i was just about to make Mint Tea. it’s the time of day i think about installing mint, change my mind, and gossip about it
over a cup of peppermint tea. it’s wonderful.
I work on the IT side of a non tech company. I don’t think vastly even comes close to covering how un-savvy the average person is
And it’s getting worse, not better.
It is a miracle if the average users ever learns a new program with a GUI. And will curse the gods when even a single button is moved.
And if anyone thinks they would be fine running any command on anything ever, they are deluding themselves.
A black box with a single line of text? = they are being hacked and will pull the plug just to get rid of it.
I tried to upvote you twice but was not allowed. So here is my second upvote: You hit the problem spot on!
Shit’s better now. That’s not to say that your average person could handle everything.
If I have a normal person linux on a usb on a computer set to boot from usb, they could totally install it.
If an update fucks over a driver or a package, they’re completely fucked.
If they need to make their own boot usb, they’re completely fucked.
If they need to configure their computer to boot from the usb if it’s not setup that way … completely fucked.
If they’re good with generic drivers, generic browsers and probably steam, they’ll be fine.
Grandma is probably fine with Linux now.
Of course, a decent number of gen-x grandmas might have actually fucked around with linux years ago :)
That’s also a lot more work than I’m willing to put into using my computer when Win10 still works well enough.
It would be great if Mint or Zorin had an atomic version so a failed update can be switched back in seconds and it is essentially impossible for the user to break anything outside of the home folder.
NixOS does that. But it’s WAY too complicated for general use :)
I think it’s more like people still hold onto a view of the difficulty that hasn’t been true for years now in the big ones (Ubuntu, Mint, Debian, etc). I agreed with this position 10 years ago, but not anymore. Users that aren’t super technical are likely just browsing, watching video, and playing games. All that works out of the box now with nearly no set up in my experience. My 7 year old has been using it with less problems than he was getting in Windows 11 (seriously).
This mirrors my experience as a dumb person desperately trying to seem to cool to nerds. I’d alwys try Linux and something wouldn’t work, I’d spend hours trying to fix it, then I’d just stop booting into it.
Been mono-booting Linux Mint with almost no problems for a year, the same time that Windows is the worst its ever been.
Did your 7 year old setup their own Linux environment?
Because anyone can run a fully configured computer. Doesn’t matter if it is Linux or Windows.
And the problem with Linux is the setup. Too many incompatible or badly written drivers. The first step is already finding hardware that is supported.
Also, did you use the out-of-the-box experience for Windows? Or try to put in too many workarounds because you didn’t like how Microsoft handles things? I bet your 7 year old would have zero issues with a regular Windows setup.
Yeah, but Windows is no easier to install… most people just don’t experience it because it is the usual pre installed OS. I don’t think it’s really fair to count that against Linux… in terms of the installation process, I found them to be similar, which is to say a pain in the butt. I wouldn’t recommend a non tech person try to install WIndows either.
Aside from that, no, it did not need any further set up aside from installing Steam via the repository. Arguably easier than in WIndows, certainly not harder. I did also install VLC but probably wasn’t necessary, there was a pre installed media player I don’t remember the name of…
It’s funny you mention drivers as that’s what made me switch it over. A Windows update inexplicably borked some video card drivers. I didn’t need to install any drivers manually for the Linux setup, it all worked out of the box without any issues so far. Driver pains used to be a big issue years ago, but I think for 90% of PCs it’s a non issue today.
No, it was a very vanilla Windows setup. At least I can’t think of anything… what kind of workarounds did you have in mind?
Oh, absolutely. They’ve never had to do family tech support, and it shows.
I dunno, I switched my 7 year olds laptop over specifically because Windows updates kept breaking things. Everything worked out of the box with Linux and hasn’t broken yet. He doesn’t care either way, he just wants to use his programs, and that’s been easier since switching. I say this as someone who very painfully had to use Linux for a few years about 10 years ago… the experience is just very different today. I don’t think a day to day user will notice any difference beyond better stability.
My experience is that once set up, the easy linux distros are way less likely to randomly stop working and need support. And by set up, I pretty much mean “install the OS and grab Steam”.
exactly the reason I swapped my parents pc to linux, its just stable and simple for them to use. they dont do much other than open the browser and go to youtube or just plug their phone in and copy over their photos to the pc
Whenever you try to explain anything the conveesation is totally uninteresting
Note to self: they dont care. They dont care that they dont care
The difference between Linux and Windows is that Windows is being made terrible on purpose.
does that imply linux is being made terrible by accident? which implies also that linux is being made terrible?
From my experience, Linux is a little more susceptible to random bugs and issues, sadly doesn’t support a lot of common software and games, etc. Terrible might be a strong word, but it has its issues. Hopefully things keep getting better.
yea it can run most things i want in my case, either with distro amnostic packages, the pacjage manager or wine. Some stuff doesn’t work yea, if you need very specific software or play meta games or some also specific games it might not work either. At least it’s getting better tho like you said, (unlike windows(like you also said)).
The reasons I use Windows instead of Linux:
- I don’t really care that much
- i’ve had my PC on windows for a long time and haven’t had any major issue with it
- i’ve hard it’s a lot of work, especially when you already established a lot of things on windows
- I suck at coding. Closest I can do is vibe coding and it is very shameful. I can read and somewhat understand what code does, but I don’t have the time or patience to learn. Especially since there are so many languages and my school tried to teach Java for 2 school years, HTML for 1, and CSS for 1.
MacOS users in this post:
TempleOS users in this post:
Well we wouldn’t want to commit sacrilege
lol Who?
Hated by both sides for different reasons but both are valid
macOS is for people who think people should earn for their work.
Linux is for people who believe NOBODY should EVER earn money for ANYTHING EVER.
Don’t believe me? Let’s talk about SuSE. Or Red Hat. Or IBM. All “evil” the second they started charging “money” for the “work” of the “laborers”.
lol
Open sources in awesome thing, but people should get paid for their labor without suddenly being considered evil
And you can debate the abominable labor practices of Apple Inc., but poor labor practices does not devalue their products, no matter how far you twist your logic or philosophy. nor how many childish tantrums you throw.
You think this sounds like a absurd argument? This is what you all sound like when you talk about macOS. Or even windows (which I have to agree is garbage, but that’s beside the point). Every single time. ridiculously, myopically, one-sided and so ignorantly biased… but nooo… nothing but Linux can ever be acceptable. And any criticism of it or any user of it is worse than the Holocaust.
You’re all a bunch of childish clowns
It’s a shame my instance has disabled downvoting.
Linux is not exclusively for anti-capitalist FOSS-lovers like myself. As you mentioned, there are multiple different corporate distros. Additionally, “The Cloud” runs on Linux: not even Microsoft uses Windows to host their services. And let’s not forget Android and Tizen!
All of that is, however, beside the point. Do you reject Wikipedia because it too is created by volunteers? Software, like knowledge, exists beyond the concept of scarcity.
If us FLOSS-lovers had our way, no one would ever have to pay for software, as it would be maintained by the community. And of course, most such projects and developers accept donations.
I hope this does not fall on deaf ears, though I understand that the concept of working to improve the lives of others (and one’s own life) without some form of direct payment is… foreign, to many people living under capitalism.
I’ve never seen a software freedom or open-source enthusiast make anything remotely like this argument. When we have criticisms of predominantly open-source-based companies, it’s usually because they’re adding some kind of proprietary scamware into their systems, not because they’re charging money for their services.
Plenty of people and companies have found ways to generate income - yes, even beyond donations - while still respecting other’s rights. You’re just repeating a lie that’s been debunked and dead for years.
I am a software engineer who believes software engineers should be paid for their work. I use Linux. Do I mean nothing to you??
I think most Linux users don’t have a problem with things like RHEL. I personally think it’s great. I don’t personally use it, but I have absolutely no problem with it.
The actual problem Linux users care about is when people use and modify the Linux kernel (or any other GPL project), distribute the binaries, but don’t distribute the source code. (I’m looking at you, Sony.)
Why is it that half the time I see a diatribe with no substance but a lot of syllables just for the sake of syllables it is you? Are you getting paid by the word?
Cut it out.
What a hypocritical thing to say
If you don’t like my comments, just do what I’m gonna do to you: use the block function
Also BSD
Meanwhile MacOS users:
:upscale()/2014/03/07/000/n/1922283/b02953202e56f57a_TP4tg1D-1.gif)
interpret as you see fit
IT Professional here. I would take a steaming shit on every Apple product anyone has ever needed my help with if I didn’t think it would get me fired.
There’s just as many bugs, they’re just pretty sometimes.
And when you’re not fighting bugs, you’re fighting the design of the OS itself
Oh.
Well, the exact reverse of this was and has been my mental state for years now, untill a seemingly insecure Windows user here apparently felt the need to insinuate the opposite is actually case.
Evangelizing?
No, I don’t do that.
I answer some questions that some people have, where they’re initiating things.
Occasionally this elicits a REEEE type response from a Windows user… which I can usually counter with ‘I actually used to work for MSFT… that’s why I am now a linux user.’
Oh god, I remember that guy now. He would post vague linux memes that weren’t really for or against linux, then shit on linux in the comments. He made his own communities that he would solely post to. I blocked him after I realize he wasn’t going to get bored very quickly.
Welcome to your daily post about how Linux users talk so much about themselves…
Surrounded by zero Linux users talking about themselves.
I use arch btw
how are your feet?
And a whole bunch of Windows users clearly thinking way more about Linux than they care to admit.
With Lemmy, you’re being constantly bombarded how Linux is the golden grail of everything, that farts cotton candy and pisses rainbows.
I’d love to think more about Linux by installing it. But just the Linux community alone is enough to deter me. I don’t want to be seen as part of that group, ever. It is honestly the worst part about the entire environment.
And because you will need to interact with them whenever you encounter an issue. I just stay far away from them until the community can get their shit together.
Just asking what distro to use will get them fighting.
Can you point on the doll to where the bad penguin man touched you?
Honestly doesn’t come up much in my day to day
Comes up enough to post about tho, doesn’t it?
There is not a comment in this thread worthy of a shitpost, just lots of boasting how great Linux is. The Linux users don’t even get the irony of this. But, you’re technically correct.
Linux? Isn’t that the kid from the Charlie Brown cartoons that walks around holding a blanket?
The irony.
Windows users think about Linux all the time. “Why is this web site down?” “Whats happening with Cloudflare?” etc. They just don’t realize it’s Linux and don’t notice it all unless it happens to stop working. Them not thinking about it isn’t lack of concern or interest, it’s complete ignorance of the reality they live in. In fact, they probably have a computer with a *nix derivative OS that they use every day, whether their smartphone is Android or iOS.
